Newb currently fishless cycling - NitrIte/trAte question...

[BldrArch]

Hi ya'll. Long story short, I got a 20 gal from Petco (hides under chair) and besides about a year long stint with a 20 gal in college, I am a total newb. Or noob...or whatever. Didn't know what I was doing then either.

I got the tank and then the next day found this wonderful forum! So, here's what's goin' on:
1. Against my husband's wishes, I decided to do a fishless cycle after discovering you helpful folk.
2. Today is day 11 of my cycle. But I didn't know to add ammonia until after reading Fishless Cycling for Dummies so theoretically, I'm on day 9 of my cycle.
3. Being the newb I am, I did purchase about 4 live plants from aforementioned "pet" store so they are in my tank (which I think 2 of them are on the way out because I don't know what I'm doing there either...sigh).
4. Added 2 tsp ammonia (purchased from Ace) to my 20 gal. Shot my ammonia up to undetectable leves so did a PWC and got it down to around 5-6ppm.

Here's where it's getting wierd. 2 days ago (day 7 post ammonia) my nitrItes started registering and I got the faintest detection of NitrAte. And my ammonia started coming down. Is this even possible so soon?

Today (cycle day 9) here are my readings (OK, to throw another wrench in the works, I got the test strips pre-AA forum but just received my API kit today. So, AM's readings are strips, the later readings from today are API):

Ammonia: 0 (after being around 5ppm for the last week)
NitrIte: is so high it's off the chart (2 days ago it was around 3.0ppm)
NitrAte: around 20 ppm (again, strips...hard to tell). 2 days ago it was more than 0 but barely detectable.
PH: 6.8
Alkalinity: 0

I then added 1/4 tsp ammonia to bring that back up. About 2 hours later with my API kit I get:

Ammonia: 2.0 ppm
NitrIte: is so high it's off the chart
NitrAte: 5.0 ppm (not sure why it's so different from the strip's reading)
PH: has risen to 7.4-7.6 (which makes some sense to me re: ammonia)

Is this normal after only a week? Should I do a PWC to get the NitrItes back down? I think I read on here that too high of nitrItes can actually stall the cycle?

Also, my alkalinity had been reading around 80 this whole week and all of a sudden it's 0. Is this cause for concern? Maybe someone could school me on the importance of alkalinity and why my strips test for it but the API kit does not?

Thanks all!!

Oh, and for those who want the long story:
I wanted to get a Betta and a 5 gal w/heater, filter, etc. for my daughter. Went to the store and saw I was going to spend around $50 for a kit. Lo and behold they had the 20 gal on sale for $45 down from $100...sigh. Looks like I won't be getting that Betta after all...unless you can recommend good community fish for it??

 

[Coleallensmom]

Don't pay a whole lot of attention to the nitrAte test at this point. When there are high levels of nitrIte in your tank water, it affects the accuracy of the nitrAte test. The fact that you are seeing nitrIte and nitrAte is a good thing because it means your cycle is progressing along the way it should. Since your nitrIte is off the chart, a large PWC might be in order to get that number down.

As far as your Alkalinity is concerned, those test strips are notoriously inaccurate. I wouldn't worry about your water hardness or alkalinity at the moment.

 

[eco23]

Sounds like you're nearing the end! A couple things...I'd go ahead and do a 50% pwc for a couple reasons, first to get the nitrItes into a readable range and because it can and will stall your cycle if it gets crazy high. Also, a cycling tank does cause a major reduction in the buffers in your tank (thanks to the nitrifying bacteria) and can lead to a major pH crash...happened to me.

Also the nitrAte test can be skewed because of the plants. I'd just do the 50% pwc, wait till the nitrItes drop to 0 then do a major 90% pwc to get the nitrAtes down so it's safe for fish. Sounds like everything's going perfectly...don't forget the dechlorinator with the pwc!!!

 

[Deckape]

Hi you are doing extremely well and articulate too! Eco is absolutely correct. I am glad you found AA. Nice to meet ya

 

[BldrArch]

Thanks guys!!

I only have Seachem Prime. It says it removes ammonia... Still OK? Or should I dechlorinate with something else?

Am off to do 50% change. Thanks again!

 

[eco23]

The Prime doesn't actually remove ammonia, it detoxifies it. Bacteria love it even more detoxified. That's the stuff everyone uses.

 

[BldrArch]

The Prime doesn't actually remove ammonia, it detoxifies it. Bacteria love it even more detoxified. That's the stuff everyone uses.

Awesome. Thanks so much.

 

[eco23]

My pleasure. Good question, I asked the same one a while back.

 

[Joyler]

Bettas are fantastic community fish! I love Bettas so much, and intend on getting one as a "showcase" fish! Any non aggressive species works well with a Betta! There are numerous tetras, cories (as bottom dwellers), ottos (cute little algae cleaners), there a beautiful shrimp species that add lilttle punches of color. Snails...some rasborras...I would avoid angels, barbs, and other aggressive species...they'll rip the pour thing to shreds...guppies are good...but IMO i like the Betta as the main attraction...I think guppies could take the spotlight...but that is up to you

 

[Coleallensmom]

Even if the Ph has dropped, doing a large PWC should help stabilize it a bit.

Be careful if you decide to use a betta as a community fish. I'm not saying it isn't possible to do so, but IMO it largely depends on the temperament of the betta in question.

 

[Joyler]

Even if the Ph has dropped, doing a large PWC should help stabilize it a bit.

Be careful if you decide to use a betta as a community fish. I'm not saying it isn't possible to do so, but IMO it largely depends on the temperament of the betta in question.

Well of course it's that way with any species I hear adding them last helps

 

[BldrArch]

Sorry. I never got an email notification LOL! Thanks for the betta advice. I still haven't decided what fish to get. Sigh. I need to do more research.

So, to those still with me. My nitrites are still off the charts even though I'm doing PWC. My Nitrates, though, are climbing. Unfortunately it seems the ammonia absorption has stalled. If that even makes any sense. It no longer drops to 0 the next day after adding it.

Today I did a 50% change, tested a couple hours later still with high nitrites and then did a 75% change. Of course my nitrates fell but nitrites are still more than 5.0 based on the super purple color! I think this last PWC dropped them down to between 2.0-5.0. But those two purples are so close!

Didn't know if I should keep doing PWC until I at least get a readable level or just let it keep doing its thing. Again, at least the nitrates are rising. And, I assume I keep adding a small amount of ammonia since the PWC brings it to 0.

 

[Joyler]

Hmmm I'm not sure....what's happening to the ammonia? Your still adding right?

 

[eco23]

Sorry. I never got an email notification LOL! Thanks for the betta advice. I still haven't decided what fish to get. Sigh. I need to do more research.

So, to those still with me. My nitrites are still off the charts even though I'm doing PWC. My Nitrates, though, are climbing. Unfortunately it seems the ammonia absorption has stalled. If that even makes any sense. It no longer drops to 0 the next day after adding it.

Today I did a 50% change, tested a couple hours later still with high nitrites and then did a 75% change. Of course my nitrates fell but nitrites are still more than 5.0 based on the super purple color! I think this last PWC dropped them down to between 2.0-5.0. But those two purples are so close!

Didn't know if I should keep doing PWC until I at least get a readable level or just let it keep doing its thing. Again, at least the nitrates are rising. And, I assume I keep adding a small amount of ammonia since the PWC brings it to 0.

The pwc should have restored the nutrients in the water to help the cycle not stall, it also restores the buffers in the water to keep the pH more stable. You can add a TINY pinch of ground up fish food or a couple drops of pH down to also get some more nutrients in there.

 

[BldrArch]

Hmmm I'm not sure....what's happening to the ammonia? Your still adding right?

I am when it drops to 0 which it hasn't done in a little while. Or I add it after I do a PWC to get it back up.

I'm going to have to find the fish food. I saw my dog was pretty interested in it the other day. But I think I just moved it somewhere I wouldn't forget LOL!!

 

[Joyler]

Hahaha! Aww...of course! The forget-ably unforgettable place!!

 

[CoyoteWildfire]

Sorry. I never got an email notification LOL! Thanks for the betta advice. I still haven't decided what fish to get. Sigh. I need to do more research.

So, to those still with me. My nitrites are still off the charts even though I'm doing PWC. My Nitrates, though, are climbing. Unfortunately it seems the ammonia absorption has stalled. If that even makes any sense. It no longer drops to 0 the next day after adding it.

Today I did a 50% change, tested a couple hours later still with high nitrites and then did a 75% change. Of course my nitrates fell but nitrites are still more than 5.0 based on the super purple color! I think this last PWC dropped them down to between 2.0-5.0. But those two purples are so close!

Didn't know if I should keep doing PWC until I at least get a readable level or just let it keep doing its thing. Again, at least the nitrates are rising. And, I assume I keep adding a small amount of ammonia since the PWC brings it to 0.

FWIW, I would do another PWC to try to get those nitrites down a little further then add a little ammonia. Once the bacterial colony grows, it'll stabilize and continue pumping out nitrAtes, while cutting down on your ammonia and nitrItes.

I've noticed something with some of these fishless cycles, and the same thing has happened to others too. More ammonia doesn't necessarily mean better, and a bacterial colony will only be able to metabolize so much in a given period of time without reproducing first and then having the new bacteria work on the extra.

I could be wrong on this, but it seems to me that when nitrIte is produced, a similar (but not the same) bacterial colony must grow to turn it into nitrAte. So what may happen is you may have a disproportionate metabolism for ammonia and nitrIte in your tank, which can cause one to spike really high but not the other. So if you continue to dose heavily with ammonia, sure that bacteria will grow, and turn it all into nitrIte, but such high levels may make it difficult for the bacteria to cut down on the nitrIte for you.

A lot of speculation, but food for thought, based on what I've seen happen...

 

[BldrArch]

I think my cycle is done!!! YAY!!

I was out of town so I couldn't check my levels yesterday. But on Saturday my readings were:
Ammonia: 4-8ppm
NitrIte: 2-5ppm
NitrAte: 10-20

Today:
Ammonia: 0
NitrIte: 0
NitrAte: 20-40

I haven't had 0 NitrItes since I started! It's weird to me that my trAtes are so low. But I have a few live plants. Does that make a difference?

Now I have to go back and remind myself what I do now. I think I dose it with a small amount of ammonia again and check to make sure levels all go back to 0? Then do a major WC 24 hours before fish?

Yay. This weekend will be fish shopping! Now I need to decide how to stock. Decisions decisions.

 

[BldrArch]

FWIW, I would do another PWC to try to get those nitrites down a little further then add a little ammonia. Once the bacterial colony grows, it'll stabilize and continue pumping out nitrAtes, while cutting down on your ammonia and nitrItes.

I've noticed something with some of these fishless cycles, and the same thing has happened to others too. More ammonia doesn't necessarily mean better, and a bacterial colony will only be able to metabolize so much in a given period of time without reproducing first and then having the new bacteria work on the extra.

I could be wrong on this, but it seems to me that when nitrIte is produced, a similar (but not the same) bacterial colony must grow to turn it into nitrAte. So what may happen is you may have a disproportionate metabolism for ammonia and nitrIte in your tank, which can cause one to spike really high but not the other. So if you continue to dose heavily with ammonia, sure that bacteria will grow, and turn it all into nitrIte, but such high levels may make it difficult for the bacteria to cut down on the nitrIte for you.

A lot of speculation, but food for thought, based on what I've seen happen...

I forgot to mention that I decided to not add ammonia for a couple days after the ammonia levels dropped just to see. Maybe that helped?

 

[CoyoteWildfire]

That's a possibility!

If you don't intend to get fish immediately though, you may need to dose with ammonia again to make sure that your bacterial colonies don't die off before you get the opportunity to enjoy your nicely cycled tank.