Newbie checking in.....

[maxwell1295]

Hello all,

I've been lurking here for a while, gathering as much info as possible. I finally got myself up and running so I have a few questions. I didn't want to litter the board with multiple threads, so I figured it would be better to post them here and let you guys give me some input.

I'm basically returning to the tropical fish game after being away from it for many years. I grew up with livebearers (guppies, platys, mollies, etc.) and feel most comfortable with those types of fish in a community tank.

I just picked up and 30g wide tank/stand for $40 on Sunday (gotta love craigslist!). Filled it with gravel/ water on Sunday, threw together a kit of some essential chemicals/supples yesterday, and started cycling the tank last night. I have a couple of giant danios (lively little buggers) in there now to help get things started, so I won't be going fishless.

A few questions:

1. I bought a Penguin 350 filter.....is that too much filter for a 30g tank? Is there such a thing as overkill when it comes to filtering?

2. My tap water tested to a pH of 6.5 or so. Will that present any problems in the future that I should be aware of? I figure as long as I treat it with pH UP before putting it in the tank, I should be okay...

3. As it stands right now, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels are all at zero. I assume this is normal since I just started this last night. At what point should I see a change in any of them? (I'm pretty sure ammonia will show up first)

4. The only chemicals I've added is pH UP to raise the pH, AmQuel and StressCoat to condition the water, and some aquarium salt. Should be using AmQuel and StressCoat together or do they do the same thing? That's the only thing I'm unsure of. Is there anything else I need to add in order to get through the cycling process?

5. At what point would I be looking at doing any type of water change? Since nothing seems to be going on, I assume I won't have much to do other than test daily until something happens.

In my haste to buy all that stuff, I forgot one important thing.....fish food! I'm running out to Petco in a few to grab something for those danios to eat.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Is there such a thing as overkill when it comes to filtering?

Yes and no. Overkill would be something like putting a 350gph canister filter on a 10 gal tank. But as long as the current isn't too strong, you shouldn't have a problem. I think the filter choice is fine.

Will that present any problems in the future that I should be aware of?

I wouldn't worry about the pH. Do NOT use pH Up/Down chemicals. They only cause the tanks pH to fluctuate. Instead, if you want to raise it, use more natural means such as crushed coral. It will increase the hardness in addition to the pH.

At what point should I see a change in any of them?

You'll probably start to see Ammonia in the next day or so. Watch the levels closely and be prepared for water changes if the levels get toxic. After Ammonia you will start to see Nitrites and then Nitrates. Have you read the article about the nitrogen cycle?

some aquarium salt

Not needed in freshwater tanks. There is really no reason to add it. You really only need to add dechlorinator. Prime is my favorite since a bottle of it lasts a LONG time.

At what point would I be looking at doing any type of water change?

Test daily and when Ammonia gets to 1 ppm, do a water change of about 25%. Keep doing that when you seem ammonia get above that level. The cycle will probably take about 6 to 8 weeks since you're going with fish.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

BTW- Welcome to AA!

 

[Tiffi]

Welcome to AA! I'm sure you'll like it here.

To your questions:
1. The penguin 350 is for up to a 75 gallon tank. IMO if you adjust the waterflow so your fishes won't get pressed against the glass and all the water doesn't just run through there you should be ok. Put some sponges and biorings in there for the biological filtration. Unless you are giving meds or have a water discoloration keep the activated carbon out of the filter. You won't need it.

2. I would leave the water at 6.5 and get fishes that feel well in it and don't temper with it - at least not with additives. If you want to raise it somewhat, put some crushed coral into your filter (some at a time, since you already have fish).

3. Ammonia will show up first, then nitrite and nitrate. With zero ammonia and nitrites but some nitrate you have completed the cycle, but that will usually take a while (about 1-1 and 1/2month) and since you have fishes in there and therefore need to make frequent water changes to keep them alive it might take you even longer. It would have been really easier to make a fishless cycle. You definitely have to test your water at least once a day.

4. Forget the pH up, it's too unnatural. Take some crushed corals IF you want to get the pH up somewhat. Otherwise leave it at 6.5. There are many beautyful fishes that are fine with 6.5. What are you using the salt for? Unless you want to keep brakish water fishes you don't need it. I would suggest to add amquel or prime for makeing your tapwater fishsafe. That's all you need. Prime is very cost efficient and therefore everybody's favourite.
You already added fishes to get through cycling. All you need is a good test set to make daily water tests and correspondingly change the water.

5. That's right. Test the water daily to make sure the ammonia and nitrite levels won't reach toxic levels, and then change the water when you see ammonia or nitrite. I can't tell you at how much exactly. My levels are always zero and I did a fishless cycle, so I didn't have to look out for that.

 

[maxwell1295]

Thanks for the quick reply!

Have you read the article about the nitrogen cycle?

Yes, I've read it several times and from serveral different sources. Having never gone through it, I guess I'm a little curious as to the timeline of when things actually happen.

The cycle will probably take about 6 to 8 weeks since you're going with fish.

6-8 weeks? Will it really take that long? Would I have been better off doing it without fish?

BTW, one more question: Does it make sense to introduce some live bacteria to the process or am I better off letting the whole thing take its course naturally? As you can see, patience is not exactly a virtue of mine...but I think I can hold out if I need to. I'd like to get this thing off to as smooth a start as possible.

 

[Jchillin]

Welcome to AA Maxwell!

As a fellow NY'er, just wanted to mention some additional stuff for you. We do have a regional forum (see the link in my sig) which is used to communicate local stuff.

Also, have you heard of the GCAS?

 

[Tiffi]

Would I have been better off doing it without fish?

Without fish it took me about a month. It's easier, safer and faster since you don't have to worry about keeping fish alive and you can just let it run.

Does it make sense to introduce some live bacteria to the process

Some people say bacterial things like Biospira or cycle worked for them, others say they don't. It's always a risk, since the bacteria stuff has to be properly cooled till you throw it in the tank etc. Otherwise the bacteria are dead before they reach your home. Besides, most bacteria starters don't work anyway. But Biospira could be a thing to do if you want to spend the money. Make a search on this site for it.

 

[rich311k]

Welcome to AA!!! Not much to add to the excellent advice you have already gotten. I just wanted to suggest you may want to get yourself a python to make all your upcoming water changes easier. Also I would test the KH and PH of your tap water after letting it sit out over night, you may be pleasantly surprised. I am sure we don't live to far apart as I am in extreme Western Nassau and my tap PH is lower than usual, right out of the tap, right now because of extra CO2 in the water.

 

[maxwell1295]

Welcome to AA Maxwell!

As a fellow NY'er, just wanted to mention some additional stuff for you. We do have a regional forum (see the link in my sig) which is used to communicate local stuff.

Also, have you heard of the GCAS?

I just joined the regional forum. Never heard of the GCAS though.

 

[QTOFFER]

Welcome, Maxwell1295!

We live in the same borough and probably have the same water. Mine is 7.2 out of the tap, and 7.0 after sitting overnight. My KH and GH are both 3 - meaning that our water has hardly any dissolved minerals or buffering capacity.

South American and South Asian fish LOVE it. The only reason either of us would have to mess with the pH is if we wanted to keep African Rift Lake cichlids. The only additive I use is a declorinator that also chelates heavy metals (Tetra Aquasafe).

Here is a link to GCAS.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/greatercity/
We won't be meeting again until March, and I am suffering from terrible fish auction withdrawal!

 

[maxwell1295]

Thanks for the pH info...

 

[7Enigma]

You mentioned you just bought this setup (including the fish right?). See if you can return the fish for a store credit and then get them again in a month or so when the cycle is finished.

At what point would I be looking at doing any type of water change?

Consensus on this forum seems to be that above 0.50ppm ammonia and nitrIte, fish begin to become stressed, and higher levels can cause irreversible damage (gill burns, suceptibility to secondary infections, etc.). I would recommend that if you detect close to or above 0.50ppm you do a water change (this applies to fish only cycling obviously). You have a small amount of fish, and currently they all inhabit the same water level. You can probably safely do 50% PWC's without stressing the fish, and could possibly do 75% if you see a big spike (above 1ppm ammonia) without problems. I would not do 25% PWC's if you are detecting close to 1.0ppm ammonia, as that would only bring the level down to 0.75ppm, which would still be too high for the fish (based on the recommended levels I've gathered from this forum). Remember, if you have to do successive PWC's, a higher % PWC makes a huge difference in the amount of PWC's you need to do.


Take it from me, water changes are annoying (multiple water changes back to back to get to safe levels more so), and the frequency that you would be doing them might turn you off to the fish scene.

You now have the beneficial bacteria in your tank (from the fish and fish waste), so taking the fish back will not harm your cycle.

You can get some pure ammonia from a general hardware store (should not foam when shaked, should have no other additives like special smells, lotions, antibacterials, etc.) and dose with this to simulate an ammonia load in the tank. You then monitor these levels until the ammonia reaches zero, and then continue to dose at a low level (1ppm or so) until your nitrIte's start to go down. When you have no nitrIte's or ammonia, and your nitrAte level is up, your cycle is complete.

Trust me, its easier, safer, and much less stressful for you AND the fish. Goodluck.

EDIT: IF you keep the fish: I'd do a 25-50% water change when your ammonia or nitrIte values go above 0.25ppm (just remember to match the temp before adding and to add dechlor). Remember, any detectable amount of either substance is excess in the tank (the bacteria cannot use it), and so it will not slow down your cycle to have less ammonia or nitrIte (it will just harm the fish). Unless you went to zero ammonia/nitrIte (virtually impossible with fish in the tank) would your bacteria stop multiplying/die. The lower you keep these numbers the better. And I see you may have soft water. This is another reason to keep up on the water changes/ low amount of ammonia and nitrIte. You can re-equilibrate the pH back to your tap water value by doing PWC's, even if your nitrIte and ammonia numbers are acceptable. Remember, the bacteria we want thrive at above pH7.0 and going below that value starts to significantly impact their metabolism and dividing (so your cycle takes longer and they don't absorb as much ammonia/nitrIte). If you notice the pH start to dip below 7.0, I'd do a PWC. HTH

 

[Fishyfanatic]

It appears that there are several "guidelines" when it comes to cycling with fish. Either way you do it, watch your fish carefully. Fishless is the best way to do it since no fish are harmed in the cycle. Good Luck!