Please advise re unexpected new arrivals...

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jdsunflower

Aquarium Advice Activist
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
136
Location
ottawa
I have an unexpected situation that needs maximum emergency planning...

I have been reflecting on my aquarium plans for months, and finally decided to purchase a 40 or 50 g tank, to cycle with plants, and in 2 months or so, I would add a minimum of small community fish.

Well, I saw an excellent bargain (40 g tank with fixin's) AND STAND advertised in a local internet site, placed a bid, and it was accepted!
(I'm certain that the more experienced among you can see where this is going.)

Now, in my naive ignorance, I assumed this was an old picture, and they would be selling an EMPTY tank and its parts! It turns out I have accidentally inherited 6 fish as part of the bargain (egads +++). Quite apart from their choice of fish (yikes, one each of 6 different fish types), I have no cycled tank available, and have no way of contacting these people until they deliver the goods saturday noon.

I'll spare you the self-recrimination, and say I've decided that the best I can do for now is prepare the best environment I can. Not knowing if they'll even bring any water (outside a small bag each?) I'm going to assume I have no filter materials or tank water available from the old setup. If I'm lucky the tank will arrive with dregs of water and a semi-used filter (something tells me they'll clean up the filter to be nice).

I have two 5 gallon tanks I've taken out of storage, and I have filters, filter floss, air hose, heater, etc. I also have water testing materials. I'd like your advice on any "emergency" conditions I can try to supply...I'm rather resigned to simply keeping the tanks very well aerated and mechanically filtered, making frequent partial water changes... and a silly question is, given the mix of fish, I'm assuming that a Ph around 6.8 would be okay to aim for? Any value to adding charcoal? The quickest I can, I'll be off to buy lots of real plants...and set up the larger tank similarly, trying to use any filter floss and substrate available to boost the bacteria... (crash course for me!)

ANY suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
I don't have the heart to refuse the fish. Who knows what would happen to them! (if I recall, they are 1 neon tetra, one gourami, one angel, one whip tail, a tiger barb, and a last one I can't recall just now...)

JD (unexpected new mother):eek:
 
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Oh wow. :)

Do you plan on keeping the fish? If not, then could you take the fish to the fish store shortly after getting the tank and all? You could just keep them in the bags and head to the fish store. I would call around first to make sure you can find one that will take fish....tell them the situation, as it could help. :D

If you plan on keeping them, then maybe they'll have a filter with it that hasn't dried out (hopefully). :) If so, you are good. Dump the fish water (from bags or what not) and then fill it up the rest of the way with tap and dechlorinator. Turn the filter on and let it go. Plug in the heater (assuming the tank comes with one of those) and you'll be set.

When you get ready to set up the tank your way, you could move the fish to one of the 5g tanks (assuming they'll all fit) and run the filter on it, if its not too powerful. That will be an instantly cycled tank and keep the filter media wet. And you can put in substrate or whatnot to set it up your way.


Hopefully that helps! I wouldn't worry about a perfect pH. Just use tap water and don't try to adjust it. Do use dechlorinator though.
 
:D
Those are excellent ideas that hadn't occured to me (hence AA.com!).
I had no idea fish stores might take the fish. I'll check. Those are not the choices I would have made. But, when you save something's life you are responsible for it (ahem)

I'd much prefer not setting up 2 5 g then switching everything around--I don't think my hardwood floors could take the mess. I have more enthusiasm for the hobby than grace...

Thank you so much.

If I can I'll also try to set up (one or both) 5g filter(s) onto the large tank, so that when I switch the fish temporarily, I could give them lots of space by splitting them up, and use those small filters on the 5 g tanks, and, and...cycle the small tanks too! It begins...

Oh my, from an empty nest to 3 tanks!! That's funny.
 
Quite honestly, I don't think there's much you can do in a few days to help the situation, other than prepare for what's coming with research.

You said you couldn't contact them, but you were able to contact them for winning the auction. This is going to be your best bet. Make an attempt to contact them, and ask them to do everything they can to sustain the filter media. I assume that, since they're bringing fish, the tank is up and running until the day they transfer it to you. If they can bag the filter media in tank water to sustain the bacteria this is going to be much, much easier for you. Keeping the media in water will keep the bacteria alive, and minimize the cycle time in the new setup.

The water that you mentioned is of little to no value to anything, so don't even consider it.

What I recommend is this. Get all the stuff into your place, and setup the tank. Make sure to use a good dechlorinator in an attempt to sustain any bacteria that hopefully will still be alive. Fill the aquarium and get it ready to go. Do an acclimation on the fish just as if you had purchased new fish from an LFS. I prefer the drip method personally, to get the fish accustomed to your potentially different quality of water. Get them all in the tank. If the sellers were successful in sustaining the bacteria on the media, get that up and running too right away. Then, the key is going to be monitoring your parameters to see what happens. Make sure you have a good test set ready to go to keep tabs on everything.

Setting up the smaller tanks you have available isn't going to buy you anything at all through this process. In my opinion, just deal with the 1 new tank, then if you desire to setup the other tanks later we can work you through the easiest way to do that too.

As Kristin said, if you don't want the fish that are coming with it and can find an LFS or local person who will take them, that will make this much easier process as well.
 
:eggface:
riiiight...
Stress does affect clarity of thought...I see that now.

thanks for your suggestions. They are certainly less painful than my own plan of trying to get the large tank set up immediately the way I'd like it. Only switching them (to a by-then set of smaller and naturally cycled tanks) on the day of the big switch is better for everyone and gives me time to organize.

Thanks,
JD
 
ideal temp for chilled new arrivals....

Hello,
Quick question about tank temperatures. My new arrivals later this morning are likely to be at least a bit chilled. It is a cold day in Ottawa today...
Is it best to give the their 'ideal' tank temperature right away to prevent their being overly chilled, or this a situation that warrants slow accommodation even if they are a bit chilled initially. I'm leaning towards the ideal temperature, but please advise?
:-? but :D.
thanks,
jd
 
It's nice to hear a definite!
How would I estimate the best starting temperature in your view? Room temperature to start? It will probably be a max of 19 Celsius (about 66 F) outside (of course they won't really be outside--that's what's confusing). I don't want to risk chilling them in my effort not to shock them with warmth. I thought I could keep a couple of containers of conditioned water, and maybe at different temperatures? (I've got a couple of spare 5 g tanks kicking around...)
Another question concerns the decholorinator, which in this case has aloe vera (maybe they all do?). Is there any value to putting a smidgen more in case they were a bit roughed up in transit?
Finally, should I be concerned about the fact that there are 6 different kinds--Amato's own tanks keep to about 26 degrees (about 78 F) pretty well about the board (He is my Hobby God).
Thanks! Feel free to make other suggestions. I would never get offended by that (that's why I'm on AA!)
 
If you don't use this method, google "drip acclimation". I find it's the best method to use especially to prevent any temperature shock. Most people use this for reef tanks, but in your case I think it would work fine. That way you don't need to worry about what temp to start the fish at... if that makes sense? You just leave them in the water they are in now and drip the water they are going into, into that water. That way, it levels out over time nice and slowly.

The aloe stuff doesn't do much in my opinion, I wouldn't worry about adding any extra, but you can if you want to. It won't do any harm at all. :)

Sorry, I don't do freshwater anymore, who is Amato? lol

Another thought, the packaging the fish come in might be pretty good... and they might not be that cold. Especially if they were packed with a heat pack at all (doubtful, but maybe). A well packaged box (with lots of styrofoam) can retain heat pretty well and you might not have that much of a problem.

HTH :)
 
excellent!

I'd forgotten about the drip method, which I've seen mentioned. That really would be the easiest approach in this case. It also saves me from MTS (although it's like a drunkard falling off the wagon, isn't it, how much you want to resist this syndrome...)

Not sure how experienced the curent owners are. Do many people buy one of each kind of fish like they're picking a bouquet of flowers? That seems unkind to each solitary soul... I'll be splitting up the lot into 2 tanks as soon as I can, and buying them playmates and lots of plants.
monique
 
ph 9.5!

Hi,
the saga continues...
for the heck of it I've tested my water's Ph...9.5.
Now, I know it's been suggested that I not worry about Ph, but this seems significant.
Any suggestions or reactions from the more experienced?
jd
 
I didn't think that Ottawa's water is that hard!! <Googled Ottawa city water report .... said water is soft - though no pH value listed.>

First double check your test ... are you using a high range test? If the result is at the extreme range of your test, it won't be too accurate. If you are using a pH meter, have you calibrate it properly?

To confirm that kind of pH, you might want to do a KH & GH test ... that would tell what sort of water you have. Also, test your test .... try pH on distilled water, should read close to 7.

You might want to check the water the fish comes in .... since it is local, the water should not be too different. Test it the same way you do your tap. <Better yet, do a side by side comparasion.> If both read the same, you have nothing to worry about. <Even if your test is way off, you know both water are the same, so acclimatise as usual.>
 
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thanks for those suggestions.

I have recently moved, and hadn't tested the water here before. I am using a wide range Ph test.
In my last place (across town), I did have to use vinegar every time to get it down. I had a friend from out of town visiting, and without any testing, he felt that the water was very hard--he's kept and bred fish for years in Sudbury.

I've tested the hardness as you've suggested. I don't quite know what to make of this. Carbonate hardness is at 3, but General hardness, I got up to 17 drops in the test, no green! I'm thinking the test material is useless/expired (but no expiry date on the package...) Any reason to think the Carbonate hardness could be accurate and the gen. hardness test expired?

I'll follow your suggestion of testing their own Ph first. And maybe their testing materials are fresher... If I have to I can bring it down then. What do you think of the idea of adding some 'Black Water', or will that only muddy the waters? (ahem):-?

One last question: I've read somewhere that fish can do fine going from one extreme to the other, but only in one direction (and of course, can't remember if they do okay going from acid to alcaline, or vice versa, and would hate to guess wrong.) And while I'm at it, how much time should I take to get them used to a different Ph? I can't recall reading this anywhere. Thanks for your help!!
JD
 
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I don't know much about water hardness in FW, sorry. Mine was always perfect when I tested it, so I never bothered with it much.

As for pH, the values are exponential. So for example if you have a pH value of 8 and the water you are adding the fish to is pH 9, that is a 10x difference. ph 7 to ph 9 is a 100x difference, etc. Point being, changes in pH are dramatic either way you do it. Most fish can handle small changes in pH with no problems, but it depends on the hardiness of the fish as well.

Sorry I can't help more. :)
 
I appreciate the support--moral support too! I may be making too much of this, but it seems that an acid-type fish would likely be less stressed if in the closest to ideal ph range... I also want to have a planted aquarium, and none of the Amano tanks have this type of ph, with similar fish to the ones I've inherited...
I feel like "I'm expecting"! lol, and they say there are no gender differences.:D
 
You have some strange readings .... A KH of 3 should give you a pH of 7.4 or so .... something is not quite kosher.

The ottawa water dept. reports states that the water comes from the Ottawa river, and that the water is soft. They also state that they adjust the pH to "ideal". Generally the water dept push the pH towards the high 7's to minimize corrosion ... but not into the 9's.

Some explanation of: low KH, high GH & high pH would be:
1. inaccurate tests.
2. presence of Ca(OH)2 - this is what they add in Edmonton to bump up the pH, the OH- bumps up the pH, while the Ca++ reads as high GH, leaving the HCO3- unchanged (ie your low natural KH).
3. presence of some other minerals/ions.

I wonder if this is a temporary thing (spring runoff, so they have to add tons of stuff to the water.) At any rate, the first thing to do is to let your tap water sit out for 24 hrs & let it equlibrate & see what happens. If the water co. is pushing the pH for some reason, the stuff they use is often temporary. <And atmospheric CO2 would tend to neutralize all the OH-.>

For the moment, I think you need to know what pH the fish was in to start. I would think that the other people would be using just straight tap water, so should be the same as yours. As long as there is not a big diff., you can carry on as planned, regardless of the actual pH value.

If you must re-acclimatize fish to drastically different water, then you need to do it slowly. Fish don't do too well with a drastic pH drop (ie a pH crash), but you still need to go slow even going up. The ideal <for goldies anyway> is no more than 0.4 unit change in 12 hrs. In practice, if you have to bridge a big gap, you don't have the luxury to wait days, so I'd just drip acclimatize over 4-6 hrs.

As for plants .... high pH tends to lock up nutrients in non-ionic state (esp. Fe), so those are less available to the plants. That is another reason people use injected CO2 to lower the pH. If you must fuss with pH, this is prob the way to go in a planted tank. An alternative is to mix in some de-ionized/distilled water (I just use collected rain water!). This works if you have hard water (high KH & pH like mine), but if your low KH is real, you wouldn't want to dilute that down too much. But for now, I'd leave the water alone .... you have enough to worry about!
 
good tips

Thanks for your research and your help. I am very intrigued by hypothesis 2.

Right now the (private sale delivery) is perhaps in doubt. The owners of the tank did not show up and are hours late. Hopefully just running late. Given the circumstances, it might end up being a blessing in disguise...

As I mentioned, and this is the part that makes me wonder, I've always had to add vinegar to the Ottawa water to bring it down anywhere near 7 (and this over several test kits, and using the wide-range test given the tendency towards high levels), so this is not new. I think I'll have to get full water testing materials that are super-fresh, and try to get to the bottom of why the high ph is that way. Other than hardness measures, can you suggest any other tests that would help get to the bottom of this? I'm sorry, I don't know what is OH2, I think. Is there a test for this?
Again, thank you very much.

Well, I contacted the would-be sellers and they told me they'd changed their minds and were selling to someone else. It would have been appreciated to get a call and not wait around all day. Oh well, I see from other posts this happens a lot. Oh well, lots of tanks for sale!
 
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That's rotten of them to not call you. If you did this from a website (ebay, craigslist, etc.) I'd make sure to leave negative feedback or else post a beware post. I hate when people do that.
 
So close and yet so far!

I am disappointed, but am breathing easier, and have now started a basic cycling process in a small tank (safely, without fish), so that I can kick-start part of the process. Hopefully the filter will be useful when the time comes and I have a full sized tank and plants.

I learned my lesson about impulse buying in an excited state.

Question: Does a high Ph have a significant impact on cycling (does it slow it?) Should I bring it down to 7 with vinegar?

Now to stock up on new water testing materials and some natural plants.
And I get to make my own fish choices--bonus!

Thanks for your support,
JD
 
No, no impact. If you watch it, you'll see swings in the pH during the cycle. Don't worry about them, it's normal. I wouldn't even bother watching it, unless it's just curiousity.
 
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