Please help! new and started the wrong way!

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Luisa777

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
15
Hello, I am another noob that needs help, and another long post :oops:
After my daughter got a fish at the fair, we decided it would be nice to have more fish so that that little fish, wouldn't be lonely.... So we go to petsmart and take advice from the store girl that works at the fish department. Here is what she said for us to do:
Buy a 10ga tank, a cover with the lights, a Top Fin 10 filter, Total Tropical Gourmet flakes, and Aquasafe to make my tap water safe. Then she said to set it up and add 1 teaspoon of the Aquasafe to the water and let the tank run for 48 hours. Oh and in the meantime put the fish we got at the fair in a bowl.
Next morning we woke up to find the fish from the fair, dead.... needless to say this was very sad for my daughter.
2 days later and thinking we are ready to buy some pretty fish, we go to Petco and as instructed by the store clerk there, I get 4 Neon Tetras and 2 Golden Rams. I take them home with the gravel, fake plants, fake rocks and a castle. Then I get home and wash the gravel, plants and rocks very well, then I put everything in and it looks very nice. Finally I add the fish..... Next morning 3 of the Neon Tetras are dead and stuck to the filter :cry:. The other fish still looked ok at that time...I wait until the store opens and take the dead fish back and ask for help on what to do. I am instructed to put freshwater salt in the water and take another Neon Tetra home so that My live Neon Tetra is not alone, I also buy a thermometer. I get home and put the new fish in, my temperature is between 78F and 80F. Wake up this morning to find the new Tetra dead and the other fish (1 neon Tetra, and 2 Golden Ram) have lost some of their pretty colors and are looking faded, even though they swim all over the tank and seem happy to follow each other around.
So then I get on the net and find this site, and I find out about the cycle and all the stuff I should have done, and I feel horrible for bringing those poor fish home :( after work I go straight to petco and buy an AP Freshwater Master Test kit, I speak to another employee there who finally seems to know what she is talking about, who talks to me about water changes and actually shows me how to do it.. She also tells me to get the Gravel Vac, a product called Cycle, and another one called AmQuel+ to remove ammonia, nitrate and Nitrite. ...
When I got home I noticed that one of the Rams looks more faded, but they still look kinda happy, getting close to the top of the tank as soon as I get close.
I know that this post was really long but I am really lost and need all the advice you nice people can give. Listed are the results of my water tests and the products that I have bought, which I am not sure which of them I should really use or not! :D
Test Results:

PH: 7.6
Ammonia : 1.0 (I know it's high :(
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 0.0
Products I have :
Aquasafe water conditioner
Freshwater Salt
Cycle from Nutrafin
AmQuel+ (supposed to remove ammonia, nitrite ad nitrates)
Gravel Vac
Top Fin 10 filter
Total Tropical flake food
AP Freshwater Master Test Kit

The fish in Tank are: 1 Neon Tetra and 2 Golden Rams (color fading :(

questions: What can I do now to save the fish that are living? and what products should I use and not use? and please explain what is the best water to use for the freshwater fish, and if I can continue using the tap water with the Aquasafe?

Thank you so much for reading all this and for your help!!!

Luisa
 
Wow...First of all you need to change a bit of water, about 20%. But, don't disturb the gravel. Just siphon or dip it from the top of the tank. High ammonia is what is causing your fish to lose color. THey are stressed. I would do a water change daily. Feed sparingly once a day. The temp should prolly be about 78 degrees. I would not use the salt at all, but that is me. Don't add anymore fish right now. Neon tetras are kinda delicate anyway and do not cycle a tank well. I don't know about the rams. But, if you are diligent, I think they can make it. Also, don't combine the water conditioners, use one or the other.

Do a forum search for cycling your tank (it is at the top of the page). This will give you some more ideas for keeping your fish alive.
 
PS: You can check the articles too! There is usually really good info on the cycling process
 
:multi: :multi: :multi: Welcome to AA, Luisa777 and Sprite42! :multi: :multi: :multi:

As Sprite said, check the articles to learn about cycling--some fish survive high ammonia and nitrite levels, but most do not.
PH: 7.6
Ammonia : 1.0 (I know it's high)
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 0.0
Products I have :
Aquasafe water conditioner
Freshwater Salt
Cycle from Nutrafin
AmQuel+ (supposed to remove ammonia, nitrite ad nitrates)
Gravel Vac
Top Fin 10 filter
Total Tropical flake food
AP Freshwater Master Test Kit

If you have not opened Cycle or AmQuel, get your money back. Everything else looks good.The reason things aren't going well is you have fish that are not hardy. If possible, take them back--you can buy the same fish later once the tank is ready. I have no doubt your daughter will not like this idea, but she may wake up to dead fish in the coming days (if you opt for this method, here is the article on fishless cycling: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/article_view.php?faq=2&fldAuto=15 ).
Here's what I would do right now: 50% water change and 50% water change in 12 hours. You need to keep the ammonia under .5. This will prolong the cycle, but keep the fish alive. Another great way to cycle the tank is with a product called BioSpira; although, I'm not sure of it's availablity. Finally, my favorite way to cycle a tank is with the use of media from an established tank (at least 3 months old, 6 is better). If you know someone with an established tank and no fish deaths, the tank is most likely healthy and there will be plenty of bacteria. I would take the filter pad and rub it against the established pad or whatever media is present. You will still have to monitor ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, but you will find the tank will cycle in days instead of weeks.
 
Hi, thanks for the reply, :) I will start doing the water changes immediately. I didn't know that the AmQuel+ and Cycle were water conditioners also. The lady at the store gave them all to me :( so from Amquel+, Cycle and Aquasafe, which is the best to sue in my cituation where I know the ammonia is high? also were the other tests results ok? thanks!

Luisa
 
I added more to my post while you posted, so please reread.

Nitrite in a cycled tank should be undetectable, right now it's not good, but the tank is new.
AmQuel+ and Cycle
I don't consider them conditioners, but members that have tried Cycle found it doesn't work. AmQuel+ isn't worth it since PWC will remove the ammonia and nitrite (cheaper and will set you up for good tank care).
 
Oh thank you very much for replying to my posts!
I will start pwc immediately. Also should I buy a heater for the tank?
Another question is, when I do the water changes should I let the water that I will be putting in the tank sit for a while with the aquasafe, or just add the Aquasafe to it and then add it all to the tank?
thanks!
 
A heater is a good idea--50 watts is fine. This will keep the temp stable no matter what is going on in the house. I temperature match the water from the tap and add the conditioner directly to the tank.
 
Oh ok I will return the other products and get the heater :) . once I do this should I be able to see any improvement in the fish soon, if at all? I mean in them getting their pretty color back :( ...
 
There will be improvement, but it probably will not happen until the stress is gone. The fish you have are easily stressed and the presence of ammonia and nitrite may keep them from improving for the time being. Keep in mind, cycling can take weeks and you will have to be diligent with the water changes when ammonia is above .5 and then when nitrites are spiking, that needs to be kept under .5. Once the tank is cycled, meaning ammonia and nitrites are undetectable and nitrates are present, then tank care gets sooooo much easier.
 
Ok I did the pwc 50% and added the water with the aquasafe. I waited a while and did the water tests for ammonia and nitrites again and the ammonia went down to .5 and the nitrites are almost at .0. I also tested my tap water alone just to see what the ammonia was on that and it was at 1.0, so no wonder the ammonia in the tank only went down to .5 after the pwc with the Aquasafe.
I am thinking that if in a few days I don't see improvement in the color of the fish I will most likely take them back to the store, and cycle the tank the right way.. but we'll see, I'll keep you posted. Thanks!

Luisa
 
There should be no ammonia in your tap water. Try a little test: leave out a glass of tap water for 12 hours, this will allow the gases to equilibrate, then test pH and ammonia.
Tomorrow test the tank for ammonia and see where it is. If it hasn't gone above .5, hold off on a PWC. If it's above .5, do a PWC that will bring it down to .5: for example, if the ammonia reading is .7, do a 25% PWC.
 
Thanks! I will do that... I was surprised to see ammonia in my water, but I do remember something a few weeks ago in the news about the water in my area having high levels of some toxic substances, I just cant remember what they were lol. However I will leave a glass of water out overnight and see what happens.

Oh I forgot to ask, what is the best way to match water temperature when doing pwc? specially once I get the heater tomorrow my tank temperature will be higher than my tap water, and I read somewhere that I am not supposed to make the tap water come out warm because of the gas bubbles. Is this correct?
Thanks again!

Lm
 
Luisa-

Welcome to AA, and sadly, you are not the first nor will you be the last person to tell us such a tale. Your tap water tests positive for ammonia because you have choramines in your municiple supply instead of chlorine. That means, each time you do a water change with dechlor, you are adding ammonia to your tank. With no bio-filter established (you haven't "cycled" your tank) you can not get the ammonia down any lower than the 1ppm or so your tap water comes with, until you have bacteria grown. You always need to use a dechlorinator, or possible an product that dechlorinates and "binds" ammonia, as chloramines are even worse than ammonia. Others who have choramine water supplies might tell you what they think works. Later, when you have your bacteria grown, your tap water will add ammonia to your tank, but your bacteria will metabolise it very fast.

Sadly, I agree that the fish you were sold are not high on the list of hardy fish that can survive a cycle. But my hopes are with you. With Chloramine tap water, its really hard to do a cycle with fish, because you just can't dilute the ammonia out enough. You should reconsider taking the fish back and trying a fishless cycle. I know, that's not what your kid wants to see. But it might work out better in the long run.

Most people match water change temp and tank temp by feel during a python water change, and add the water conditioner either before, during, or just after the water change. You can use a thermometer if you want to be exact, but there is no harm from bubbles getting in the tank from a water change. After a while, the bubbles won't stick to things in the tank like they do when first set up.
 
Hi and thank you for the replies. Yes I do have ammonia in my water due to the Chloramines I guess. I tested the tap water that sat for 12 hours and my ammonia is at 1ppm. A few hours after the pwc I did yesterday, I tested the water in the tank again and it was back up to 1ppm, and I know that it is because of the ammonia in my tap water, like Tom said.
I guess it would be very hard to cycle the tank with the ammonia from my tap water so I am at a loss, and I guess I will take the fish back even though they show improvement from yesterday. One of the rams has some of her pretty color back, and the Neon decided to come out of his hiding spot and was swimming around... Oh and also I think that the female ram is a bully. She keeps pushing the other Ram around.

Oh is the tank water supposed to start smelling?
also these are my latest water tests from today

PH : 7.4
Ammonia: .75 to 1ppm
Nitrite : 0
Nitrate: 0

Thanks again!

EDITED TO ADD THIS::

Ok the smell in the tank is definitely there, if I get really close to the water when I open the top. I will be returning the fish to the store because I realize this smell probably means there is something really wrong with my water quality, besides the ammonia, but in the meantime what can I do to get rid of the smell and whatever is causing it?. this smell is like something rotten. ... :(

Thanks
 
Thanks Tom, I wasn't thinking chloramines in my relpy.

I'm not sure what the smell means. Many members describe their tanks as smelling "earthy" but never rotten. I have not cycled a tank from the very beginning in a long time (with multiple tanks, it's easy to skip that with established media). Maybe Tom knows--he's a Mentor and open to PMs ;)
 
Well, the good news is that you do not have to hunt down a source of ammonia for the fishless cycle right now. Its already there in your tap. Just add a simple dechlorinator, like thiosulfate, if you haven't already. The chlorine-ammonia bond will be broken, the chlorine diffuses out of the tank, and the ammonia is left behind to cycle your tank. Yes, you can cycle the tank with only 1 ppm of ammonia. It probably won't even take much longer or shorter than if You used 5ppm. Later, when your ammonia goes to zero in 24 hours, having an ammonia source (like ace hardware industrial strength cleaner = 10% ammonia) will make it easier to keep feeding the cycle, since you won't have to change water to add ammonia. In your 10 gal tank, you only need 0.34 ml for 1ppm, one ml would give you about 3ppm.

As for the rotten smell, I don't know. But if you return the fish, lightly vaccuum the gravel, change out a bunch of the water, I bet it will go away. Then add dechlor, and let the fishless cycle begin. If you have some ace hardware 10% solution, you can add 0.34 ml to 0.68 ml to get the ammonia a bit higher, if you want. Then, in about 3 or 4 weeks, your tank will readily consume ammonia, and your chloramine water won't be as bad. Read the fishless cycle articles on AA too.
 
What country and state or province do you live in? Some places have law against giving fish away as a prize at carnivals or fairs. It made me mad just reading that part of your post. Don't get me wrong, it's not you I'm mad at.

Some fish stores employers don't always give the best advice because they know that if they can keep a customer ignorant, they just keep comming back to buy even more fish from their store when the last bunch they bought dies, just like that car mechanic that told you that you needed a new engine but all you really needed was a $20 part of some sort. Others just don't know what they are doing. Maybe they just got hired off the street or something. Sometimes you get people who do know what they are talking about and actually give good advice.

I recently bought a 20 Gallon tank and also found some kind of "earthy" smell developing. It got so bad that I did a 5 gal water change just to reduce whatever it was. It smelled like someone had urinated in my tank or something, but I'm the only one living here, and I sure the heck didn't do anything like that. I started noticing it when I was bringing the Ph level up with baking soda and overshot it, so I added a few drops of acid to knock it down a bit. I figured that maybe it was the acid and alkaline reaction giving off hydrogen gasses or something like that.
 
Elmware2000 said:
I figured that maybe it was the acid and alkaline reaction giving off hydrogen gasses or something like that.

Acid + alkaline gives off CO2, which is odorless.

Smell from intial cycling is probably a bacterial bloom. Should go away when you get some good bacterai. Some algae (esp BGA) also smell. Actually, the black algae is my tank also smell if you disturb it, but is OK if left alone.
 
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