Possible hard water setups?

[bendy]

Hi all,

I'm considering starting up a new aquarium. I used to have a 20 gallon tall tank but I needed study space and sadly it had to go. I now have a bit more space and I'm considering another setup but this time I want to make sure I don't repeat the beginners mistakes I made before.

I really liked the look of planted tanks but I had a nightmare keeping the plants going. Some things were successful like Java fern but others died quite quickly. It was the same with fish unfortunately. Some fish like platys did well but others not so well. In particular I was mis-sold some dwarf puffers which I later learnt were brackish fish! My tap water is fairly hard, I think the PH readings used to be something like 7.5-8.5. This is because all the water in this area come from the local chalk hills.

Since then I have spent time reading about fish and discovered the malawi cichlids. These appear to like hard water but I'm not sure if I want that big of a tank. What I would really like is to try and recreate a nice natural looking biotope with fish and possibly plants if they fit the biotope.

It needs to be an area that is hard water friendly as I don't think I would be up to trying to lower PH etc. I haven't bought a tank yet so size wouldn't be set in stone. Like I say I like the malawi's but not sure if I have the space. Maybe anything between 20-40 gallons and ideally somewhere in the middle. I'm not too bothered about big fish or small fish so long as they will not outgrow their space.

I'm researching this myself but you can never get too much advice on this. I look forward to hearing peoples suggestions.
TIA

 

[theaquaticlibrary]

most live bearing fish would love that pH level

 

[mommytron]

most fish will adapt to any ph. as long as your ph is not swinging up and down, fish will adapt. there are only very few fish that are picky about ph. i don't think dwarf puffers are brackish, either. logansmomma1228 has one in her freshwater tank, i believe.

 

[taylorodw]

Yep, livebearers like hard water.

Guppies, Mollies, Swordtails, Platys, and African Cichlids will thrive in hard, basic water. African Cichlids, though, need 55 gallons minimum.

 

[bendy]

I've heard plenty of people say that PH and hardness won't matter because the fish are adaptable but I have also heard plenty say the reverse. In my own previous experience, given my water conditions, I found it easy to keep fish like platys alive but others like corys would suffer casualties. I would buy a few and within a month half would have died. The ones that survived were generally quite hardy after that but it was a bit depressing. :-( Maybe I was doing something else wrong?

I think regarding plants I had started all wrong. The tank had come with an under gravel filter and I only had a low power light and it was a tall tank. Things improved when I bought a canister filter but I could still only keep plants that were recommended to me as hardy. The best one was the java fern, maybe others would do better given better lighting.

I did like the platys but I don't know if I would want to dedicate a whole tank to them. They'd end up breeding like mad and I would end up with a tank full of mutts. I think the best tanks have a few species covering different sizes and swim levels.

I always liked the look of firemouths but I think they would need a bigger tank than I could give them. What do people think the best size tank for a centeal america biotope tank based around firemouths would be? Another alternative might be Africans but smaller than the malawis. I saw an article about a Zaire/Congo biotope that sounded interesting.

I had convinved myself that I didn't need a fishtank when I bought my house but a friend from work has become obsessed about getting fish himself and his enthusiasm is rubbing off. Funnily enough we both ended up making similar posts on this forum at the same time!

I've just measured up a potential spot for a tank and I reckon about 36" long is about as big as I can go. Height and depth could be anything up to about 18" I would say.

Just checked my old documents on the PC and found the spreadsheet where I recorded my water quality. The average seemed to be NO3=50 NO2=0 GH=16 KH=15 and PH is 7.8. I took one recording after a pwc and the nitrates were down to 5. Some of the older readings were as high as 100 though before a pwc. Maybe a factor in survival was the NO3 level because of my pwc regime? There are so many conflicting views on how much to change and when. I think if I were to get a new tank I would monitor this more closely and find a regime that kept my NO3 level safe rather than what somebody recommended.

 

[mommytron]

yes, that could have definitely been the problem. any levels of NO3 above 40ppm are toxic. this time around, test like mad, and make sure to stay on top of your maintenance. weekly water changes of 20-50% are recommended (of course it all depends on your filtration, stock, size of tank, etc). have you thought about using an RO/DI to get softer water? personally, i don't think 7.8 should be a problem for most fish, except maybe more finicky fish like discus. i mean, i use city water which is around 7.8, along with my lfs, that has all sorts of freshwater fish in their store. they have very healthy looking tanks.

 

[mgamer20o0]

I've heard plenty of people say that PH and hardness won't matter because the fish are adaptable but I have also heard plenty say the reverse. In my own previous experience, given my water conditions, I found it easy to keep fish like platys alive but others like corys would suffer casualties. I would buy a few and within a month half would have died. The ones that survived were generally quite hardy after that but it was a bit depressing. Maybe I was doing something else wrong?

many people blame things when they really have no clue whats going on. i will say 7.5-8.5 is a good size difference i would figure out your exact ph and the gh kh of your water. knowing what you are dealing with is often the key. my ph is here is 8ph and hardness over 200pm or 12 degrees.

I think regarding plants I had started all wrong. The tank had come with an under gravel filter and I only had a low power light and it was a tall tank. Things improved when I bought a canister filter but I could still only keep plants that were recommended to me as hardy. The best one was the java fern, maybe others would do better given better lighting.

one thing to note though you answered your own question is many plants they sell at lfs are not truly aquatic. this is way they often die. each plant needs a minimal threshold of light. some plants need more light then others. if you have a stock hood you will prob only be able to get away with java ferns anubias and moss.

I've just measured up a potential spot for a tank and I reckon about 36" long is about as big as I can go. Height and depth could be anything up to about 18" I would say.

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](L x W x H)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]40 Breeder[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]36 3/16 x 18 1/4 x 16 15/16[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]30 Breeder[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]36 3/16 x 18 1/4 x 12 15/16
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]45 Gallon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]36 1/4 x 12 5/8 x 23 3/4[/FONT]

to me it didnt sound like you kept up with your tank and/or had a highly over stocked tank. like mommytron said keep up with the weekly water changes. a stable tank should have 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and somewhere under 20-40 nitrate depending on the tank before the next week water change. most of my tanks stay under 10 nitrates. i wont go as far as saying over 40ppm is toxic. we use nitrates as a sign more of things in the water we cant test easy like TDS hormones and so on.

i don't think 7.8 should be a problem for most fish, except maybe more finicky fish like discus

i have kept discus in my tap water. they might not be successful breeding in my tap but doesnt mean they wont thrive.

i really think signing up to the forums and truly understanding how aquariums work more then what ever info they might give you at a lfs will help you a lot.

 

[bendy]

I said PH was 7.5-8.5 because it was quite a while ago and I couldn't remember exactly. I then recalled that I had recorded some readings in a spreadsheet. Most of the readings said PH=8.0 with the odd one at 7.8 and one at 7.6. Small fluctuations could have been where I was adding or removing tank decor. The readings all said exactly the same for hardness, GH=16 and KH=15. Nitrites were always zero but the nitrates varied. At times they were as high as 100 but there was a period where they were fairly stable at 20.

The reason I started logging them meticulously was out of frustration. When I first started the aquarium the Internet was not as popular as it is now. I relied on what I was told by the lfs. Regarding water changes I was told a variety of things from 10% weekly to 50% monthly.

I found over time that my plants didn't grow, I had loads of algae and some fish would only last a short period. Some types of fish would all die, others I might get a 50% survival rate with the ones that survived being pretty hardy. The platys seemed to do ok whatever.

Over time I bought a book to read about what I was doing wrong. I learnt a few bits from this but nothing that solved any of the big problems. Eventually I found aquarium advice and that's where I learnt the most. I was told all about the lighting and what types of plants would work in a low light aquarium. I was also recommended to change my filter from the undergravel type and this helped a bit.

I can't really remember what I was told about water changes. I think people were still a bit religious about what works and what doesn't. I was always careful to not exceed the 1" per gallon rule but I was probably stocked to the max because it was only a 20 gallon tank.

With hindsight I think what I would do is try out different water changes and measure nitrates before and after. Then you can find a regime that works for your size of aquarium and bioload.

The frustrations I had before were really depressing. Nobody likes to see their fish die off and if you're really trying it's a bit upsetting. I know I'm not the only person who has had these experiences. It's one of the reasons I convinced myself I didn't need another tank. I do like watching fish though, it's very relaxing. I also love spending time thinking of new aquascapes.

So given all of that...
what biotopes would you recommend?

 

[HN1]

What size tank are you realistically looking for? You have an array of choices.

I agree with and believe that a stable pH with proper acclimation and husbandry will enable most fish to be kept at most common pH levels. My only basis for this is personal experience. We have source water of 6.4 (post-gassing) and keep & breed several rift lake cichlids that are touted online as needing 7.4 - 8.6. We buffer with only rock which brings the tank to 7.0.

 

[mgamer20o0]

I was always careful to not exceed the 1" per gallon rule but I was probably stocked to the max because it was only a 20 gallon tank.

thats another myth that doesnt work very well in reality.

I agree with and believe that a stable pH with proper acclimation and husbandry will enable most fish to be kept at most common pH levels. My only basis for this is personal experience. We have source water of 6.4 (post-gassing) and keep & breed several rift lake cichlids that are touted online as needing 7.4 - 8.6. We buffer with only rock which brings the tank to 7.0.

like hn is stating there is a lot of mis info out there and often its really hard to find whats true or what is just myths.

 

[bendy]

I definately agree about the myths. There is conflicting advice everywhere you turn. There are some good articles on this site that explain some of the science. I like that because it makes more sense to me than somebodys opinion on how to look after an aquarium. I think I would definately by just a nitrate, nitrite, ammonia kit this time and tailor my water changes to keep the nitrates safe. I would probably try and buy the biggest tank I could afford as well and try to stock it a bit lighter.

I do still like the idea of a biotope that fits my tap water conditions. I think it will be more satisfying and easier to grow some plants. So far it seems hard water is Africa or central America. Many of these fish are large cichlids requiring 55 gallons minimum. As I said before I can't really go larger than 40, I have seen a couple of potential tanks of 33 and 40. This sort of size seems to limit your biotope options. I do like the look of kribs though.

Another option is to be a bit more flexible on the PH and go for something Asian perhaps. The only one I'm not too keen on is amazon. I'm certainly in no hurry to decide. I'm just mopping up information at the moment and enjoying looking. I'll probably wait to see how my friends tank turns out first. I'm excited for him!

 

[mattrox]

Why not try some Julidochromis or shell dwellers?

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Species Profiles -- Cichlid-Forum