Question on the Cycle (any chemists or pros?) I'm stuck!

[pearls-before-swine]

My cycle has been doing weird things, so I just wanted to ask here..google hasn't been much help.

Essentially, my question is..what does the ammo > nitri > nitra cycle look like? If I add ammo, how long does it take to convert to nitrite and then to nitrate? Will you be able to detect a rise in nitrite levels, or does it get converted to nitrate at an equal speed?

I've been cycling my tank for awhile now (3 weeks) and I *think* its cycled, but I'm not sure.. I dose it to 4 ppm ammo every day (it will drop to zero). About a week ago the nitrite levels were off the chart, with very little nitrate.

Now, my nitrite levels are close to zero (yay!) but my nitrate levels are only around 40ppm...here's where it gets weird.. I'm using the API liquid tests. I tested for nitrate last night as per the directions (waited ~10 mins before reading, shook bottle 2 extremely well/banged on the floor to get the powder off the bottom), came back with the same reading i've been getting for a week. I then got distracted with the kids and forgot to rinse it out. When I got up this morning, the colour was way darker, like closer to 80-100ppm. Anyone have any idea what's going on here? Is the test accurate after 5 mins like it says in the instructions, or is my overnight reading correct?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Shane83]

My cycle has been doing weird things, so I just wanted to ask here..google hasn't been much help.

Essentially, my question is..what does the ammo > nitri > nitra cycle look like? If I add ammo, how long does it take to convert to nitrite and then to nitrate? Will you be able to detect a rise in nitrite levels, or does it get converted to nitrate at an equal speed?

I've been cycling my tank for awhile now (3 weeks) and I *think* its cycled, but I'm not sure.. I dose it to 4 ppm ammo every day (it will drop to zero). About a week ago the nitrite levels were off the chart, with very little nitrate.

Now, my nitrite levels are close to zero (yay!) but my nitrate levels are only around 40ppm...here's where it gets weird.. I'm using the API liquid tests. I tested for nitrate last night as per the directions (waited ~10 mins before reading, shook bottle 2 extremely well/banged on the floor to get the powder off the bottom), came back with the same reading i've been getting for a week. I then got distracted with the kids and forgot to rinse it out. When I got up this morning, the colour was way darker, like closer to 80-100ppm. Anyone have any idea what's going on here? Is the test accurate after 5 mins like it says in the instructions, or is my overnight reading correct?

Thanks in advance!

Your overnight reading cannot be trusted, no. Your results need to be taken within reasonable time as per the instructions. There are a massive amount of variables involved to give you one answer I think, but on average, naturally speaking, I believe the cycling process takes around 3-4 weeks to do well. 40 ppm of nitrate is quite good and it sounds to me like your tank is pretty much cycled. Stop dosing with ammonia. Wait for your nitrite to drop. I would perform a large water change (90%) and start looking at adding your first fish.(assuming your other parameters are ok.) I would expect your nitrate to continue to rise from now on but you can now keep the cycle going with fish!

 

[eco23]

My cycle has been doing weird things, so I just wanted to ask here..google hasn't been much help.

Essentially, my question is..what does the ammo > nitri > nitra cycle look like? If I add ammo, how long does it take to convert to nitrite and then to nitrate? Will you be able to detect a rise in nitrite levels, or does it get converted to nitrate at an equal speed?

I've been cycling my tank for awhile now (3 weeks) and I *think* its cycled, but I'm not sure.. I dose it to 4 ppm ammo every day (it will drop to zero). About a week ago the nitrite levels were off the chart, with very little nitrate.

Now, my nitrite levels are close to zero (yay!) but my nitrate levels are only around 40ppm...here's where it gets weird.. I'm using the API liquid tests. I tested for nitrate last night as per the directions (waited ~10 mins before reading, shook bottle 2 extremely well/banged on the floor to get the powder off the bottom), came back with the same reading i've been getting for a week. I then got distracted with the kids and forgot to rinse it out. When I got up this morning, the colour was way darker, like closer to 80-100ppm. Anyone have any idea what's going on here? Is the test accurate after 5 mins like it says in the instructions, or is my overnight reading correct?

Thanks in advance!

If the ammonia is dropping from 4ppm > 0 and the no2 has dropped on it's own...it should mean you're are either cycled, or on the verge. Make sure you're monitoring your pH level as crashes are common at this point which can potentially stall or revert your cycle.

The API nitrAte test is so finicky I don't personally hold it accountable for a conclusion. In a situation like this the ammonia and no2 levels are all we truly need to be concerned with. If you're zeroing out 4ppm ammonia down to zero with 0 no2 in 24 hours...you're cycled.

Check out the article in my signature for some info

 

[pearls-before-swine]

So i read the article in your signature, just tested my pH.. went from 7.4 a few days ago to 6.0 now... Also, I have hard water so that's only making it worse Gonna do a water change (also think I overdosed ammo this morning... Doh!) and hopefully things will perk up in the morning!

 

[eco23]

So i read the article in your signature, just tested my pH.. went from 7.4 a few days ago to 6.0 now... Also, I have hard water so that's only making it worse Gonna do a water change (also think I overdosed ammo this morning... Doh!) and hopefully things will perk up in the morning!

Yep, massive pwc to restore the natural pH value of the tap water, dose it up to 4ppm once more, and if you can drop that to zero with zero no2 in 24 hours... you're cycled . Worst case scenario is that the pH crash shocked the bacteria and it'll take a day or two to recover. Either way...you're knocking on the door. You'll have fish within the next few days. Great job

 

[pearls-before-swine]

Thanks.. I do have one other question tho, regarding substrate.

When I set up my tank originally a month ago, I only had 1 bag of substrate (I'm using sand). Now I know that the bacteria not only grow in the filter, but also on every other surface in the tank. I am planning on adding an additional bag of sand -will this impact the cycle in any way? Will the bacteria on the original substrate die if I "top up" my substrate?

 

[eco23]

Thanks.. I do have one other question tho, regarding substrate.

When I set up my tank originally a month ago, I only had 1 bag of substrate (I'm using sand). Now I know that the bacteria not only grow in the filter, but also on every other surface in the tank. I am planning on adding an additional bag of sand -will this impact the cycle in any way? Will the bacteria on the original substrate die if I "top up" my substrate?

You're right that it does live on every surface of the tank, but the VAST majority is in your filter media. I wouldn't foresee any negatives by adding the additional substrate. For example, I've switched out every single piece of gravel in a tank and replaced it with sand...and I never had any sign of a toxin spike. On the other hand I've pulled out pieces of filter media to give to friends or set up other tanks and had a mini-cycle for a few days. So that will show how large of a proportional difference there is between the two.

That said, the very end of your cycle is a tedious balance point. The bacteria will adjust almost exactly to the ammonia input, so by losing some there's the slight potential it will have some negligible impact...but really nothing I'd be concerned about

 

[Shane83]

Thanks.. I do have one other question tho, regarding substrate.

When I set up my tank originally a month ago, I only had 1 bag of substrate (I'm using sand). Now I know that the bacteria not only grow in the filter, but also on every other surface in the tank. I am planning on adding an additional bag of sand -will this impact the cycle in any way? Will the bacteria on the original substrate die if I "top up" my substrate?

I use sand regularly with good results. Be aware though that usually sand will form much higher concentrations of anaerobic bacteria. This CAN be a good thing but if disturbed can release some deadly toxins into the tank, though eco23 sounds like he can probably give you more info on that. I wouldn't imagine that the actual process of dumping the sand in will affect your cycle greatly.

 

[eco23]

I use sand regularly with good results. Be aware though that usually sand will form much higher concentrations of anaerobic bacteria. This CAN be a good thing but if disturbed can release some deadly toxins into the tank, though eco23 sounds like he can probably give you more info on that. I wouldn't imagine that the actual process of dumping the sand in will affect your cycle greatly.

Agreed. Since the substrate is a fairly low oxygen environment compared to the media, there's not many of the true nitrifiers down there. The gas pockets can be prevented with burrowing snails like MTS, and I've also been told deep rooting plants help to avoid it. Personally I stick my hand in there every couple pwc's and churn it all over to prevent the gas pockets from forming in the first place (in addition to burrowing snails and my plants).

 

[pearls-before-swine]

Thanks guys! just finished my pwc (stupid pH..gotta love pythons though!) Added a small amount of ammo, will check in 20 mins to see where's it at, and hopefully it will be down again by the afternoon.

Eco > you deserve some sort of AA Most Appreciated Newb Helper of the Year Award or something!

 

[eco23]

Thanks guys! just finished my pwc (stupid pH..gotta love pythons though!) Added a small amount of ammo, will check in 20 mins to see where's it at, and hopefully it will be down again by the afternoon.

Eco > you deserve some sort of AA Most Appreciated Newb Helper of the Year Award or something!

Thanks for the compliment. Hopefully there's lots of happy fish swimming around in cycled tanks...thats all the reward I need.

Keep us posted, and since you started a thread it's now a requirement to post pictures of your fish

 

[pearls-before-swine]

Update this morning: After the pH Crash!

Ammo levels dropped to 0 overnight (yay), nitrite reading is high again (5+) but pH has appeared to have stabilized around 7.6. Dosed ammo to 1.0 ppm (expecting this to reach 0 by this evening).. will check nitrite again, and hope it starts declining again.

 

[eco23]

Update this morning: After the pH Crash!

Ammo levels dropped to 0 overnight (yay), nitrite reading is high again (5+) but pH has appeared to have stabilized around 7.6. Dosed ammo to 1.0 ppm (expecting this to reach 0 by this evening).. will check nitrite again, and hope it starts declining again.

You're probably just watching the conversion of ammonia > nitrIte > nitrAte. One thing I'd advise is to not add ammonia more than once every 24 hours. It's not needed (you won't starve the bacteria), will just lengthen the process and be a bit more work for you at the end.

Normally the pH crashes tend to affect the ammonia > no2 bacteria the worst...so if you still dropped all of that ammo overnight I think you're in good shape

 

[pearls-before-swine]

Thanks for all the help eco.. one last question (well, very unlikely the last question, but I digress). Should I continue to dose ammo up to 4 every morning, or lower the amount, or stop altogether?

Thanks so much!

 

[eco23]

Thanks for all the help eco.. one last question (well, very unlikely the last question, but I digress). Should I continue to dose ammo up to 4 every morning, or lower the amount, or stop altogether?

Thanks so much!

I'd just keep going like nothing happened (dosing up the ammonia every 24 hours), and when you're zeroing out the ammonia and nitrIte between doses...you're cycled. Then just turn down your heater (if you've got it cranked up), pwc's to get the nitrAte as low as possible (at least below 20ppm) and add fish

 

[pearls-before-swine]

erg!

eco I hope you read this!!

Before my pH crash, my nitrites had dropped to 0, ammo was 0 as well (nitrates weren't super high but thats another story). If you recall, I did a pwc that night to bring pH back up, dosed ammo to ~2 that same night, and the following morning ammo had dropped again... awesome, those bacteria seem to be okay!

You said that I was likely seeing the ammo >nitrite change because my no2 was sky high again... that was a few days ago, and it hasn't budged since! I know my ammo>nitrite bacteria are okay because my ammo levels have been zeroing out every day but nitrite is still 5ppm+ >.<

Also, I know you said the nitrAte test isn't so accurate, but it is normal to not see *ANY* increase in the nitrate level for 2 weeks? Or is it just a crappy test?

 

[eco23]

eco I hope you read this!!

Before my pH crash, my nitrites had dropped to 0, ammo was 0 as well (nitrates weren't super high but thats another story). If you recall, I did a pwc that night to bring pH back up, dosed ammo to ~2 that same night, and the following morning ammo had dropped again... awesome, those bacteria seem to be okay!

You said that I was likely seeing the ammo >nitrite change because my no2 was sky high again... that was a few days ago, and it hasn't budged since! I know my ammo>nitrite bacteria are okay because my ammo levels have been zeroing out every day but nitrite is still 5ppm+ >.<

Also, I know you said the nitrAte test isn't so accurate, but it is normal to not see *ANY* increase in the nitrate level for 2 weeks? Or is it just a crappy test?

eco sees everything

Sounds like the ammo > no2 guys pulled through, but the no2 > no3 guys took a little hit. The good news is that they don't die...they just go dormant. How long they stay asleep will correspond to how hard the pH crashed. At this point all we can do is wait it out a bit longer (and keep an eye on pH!).

Problem with the no3 test is that it's tricky to get accurate results. You've got to shake the things until your arms fall off. The #2 solution solidifies, so you've got to shake it like your life depended on it for 30 full seconds. Then they don't like to mix in the test tube, so you've got to shake the entire solution HARD for a full minute. Let it sit for 5 minutes and record your results then. It's simply impossible for the no2 to be converted, but not turn into no3. It's the law of nature. I guarantee they're there...we've just got to find them. It will be more important once your cycle is done so you can make sure you've got them well below 20 before adding fish.

 

[pearls-before-swine]

Okay... good news!!!!

Shook the no3 bottle2 like crazy (well, I didn't but that's what 4 year old little boys are for!) for a good 10 minutes (gave it a good hard 2-min shake myself just to be safe) and the results came back awesome! I'm guessing around 100-120ppm? It was a nice cherry red - yay my bacteria are alive!

Now according to the article you suggested, it's recommended to do a pwc (I'm assuming to help keep up the buffering capacity of the water to avoid a pH crash?) should I continue to do this, even though I did a pwc a few days ago, or just wait until my no2 levels have dropped, then pick up with the big 90% change?

I'M SO EXCITED!!

 

[eco23]

Okay... good news!!!!

Shook the no3 bottle2 like crazy (well, I didn't but that's what 4 year old little boys are for!) for a good 10 minutes (gave it a good hard 2-min shake myself just to be safe) and the results came back awesome! I'm guessing around 100-120ppm? It was a nice cherry red - yay my bacteria are alive!

Now according to the article you suggested, it's recommended to do a pwc (I'm assuming to help keep up the buffering capacity of the water to avoid a pH crash?) should I continue to do this, even though I did a pwc a few days ago, or just wait until my no2 levels have dropped, then pick up with the big 90% change?

I'M SO EXCITED!!

Great!

Pwc's never hurt...but it's not necessary to do them (unless you feel like it) as long as the no2 and no3 have not been sky high for a significant amount of time...or the pH starts dropping. Since you just changed water a few days ago...I don't see a need. Now it's just a matter of dosing up the ammonia every 24 hours and waiting for the nitrIte test to turn blue again. That article sounds strangely familiar, lol .

 

[pearls-before-swine]

My tank is finally done!!! Perfect timing too, the lfs is having their "50% off anniversary sale" yes!

Water is still cloudy from adding the new sand, but ammo=0 nitrite=0 nitrate=5

Woohoo!! Thank you so much eco for your help and guidance!