Retarting fishless cycle from scratch...help!

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We need to watch everything but your ph is the primary concern right now. If your nitrites remain really high (5+) for more than 2wks or you stop seeing an increase in nitates, then another water change may be in order.

If you have access to some more cycled media, this will def help things along. Many membes have had success using Angelsplus 'active' filtes (live, seeded filters) if your interested in going this route. Just make sure you purchase a filter labeled 'active' or you will just be buying a brand new filter. Its not necessary though and your tank will still cycle without one!

Sponge Filters for aquariums
 
Here's today's situation, about 24 hours since I last tended to the tank:

pH=6.4 (again!)
Ammonia=1.0
Nitrites=1.0
Nitrates= 10 or 20 after about 5 minutes, but I let the tube stand for about an hour and when I looked again, it was 40ppm so I'm not sure which is the correct reading. So I went ahead and did another 50% WC to bring the pH back up; it's at 7.0 now and I dosed ammonia back up. Now my question is, am I in for daily 50% water changes from here out to correct the pH? Wondering if such a drop (7/7.2 yesterday) to 6.4 today is normal? What is causing these drops? Thanks!
 
Is the ph drop normal? Yes and no. As your bacteria convert the amm & nitrite, they need to use the buffers in your water in order to complete the chemical process of conversion. The buffers keep your ph stable- without them, you ph crashes. Because your ph keeps crashing, its safe to assume the buffer level in your water is on the low side. You wont need to keep doing water changes- we just need to add some help to your tank to help keep the water buffered adequately. You will need to get yourself some crushed coral or argonite & add some in a mesh bag or piece of panythose to your filter. It will be a bit of trial & error to figure out the correct amount but i would start with a large tablespoon & work from this point.
 
I would also consider dosing to a lower amount of amm (2ppm) for a few days until we get your ph stable. Less conversion=less buffers used & hopefully, a more stable ph!
 
If my buffer level in my water is on the low side, are we talking about water hardness/softness? Does it mean that mine is on the hard side? So I'm guessing that coral or argonite is an alkaline substance? And so by adding this I'm hoping to maintain the pH a little higher? Or am I all mixed up? :)
 
Thats ok- dont worry about it!!! Just dont be surprised if the ph falls again tommorrow! The coral/argonite is a carbonate base & slowly releases it into the water thus the carbonate buffers the water. Soft water is usually lacking in buffers & more neutral or acidic. Hard water is usually more alkaline/higher ph which means it has more dissolved buffers in it (carbonate in addition to other minerals). This is not quite as cut & dry as this but this is the general idea. We usually dont test for dissolved buffers (things like gh, kh) in freshwater unless unless your aiming for something specific for a certain species of fish. Most fish are fine & adaptable in wide range of water. I believe the serious planted tank lovers test for a slew of things as well (but this is uncharted territory for me). If you do some googling, you will find a more scientific explanation if your interested in learning the chemistry behind all of this.

In respect to your water, we dont need to raise the ph but just keep it stable. Even dropping the amm dose down a bit may be all that you need to do to maintain stability- we can just cycle your tank at a lower number if this is the case.
 
PWC once more or just get crushed coral?

Today's readings:
Ammonia just over 0.25
nitrite=0.5
nitrate=30ppm
pH=6.6, not quite as low as the 6.4 I got for the past 2 days after doing 50% WC x 2 days.

jlk suggested getting some aragonite or crushed coral to slowly add buffers to the water, and dosing ammonia only up to 2.0 ppm instead of the 4.0 I have been doing. Should I do a 50% WC once more to bring up the pH or leave it alone while I go get some crushed coral? In a pinch is it a bad idea to add in a dash of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to bring up the pH? I just don't want things to stall due to low pH while I find some crushed coral, which, by the way, I hope is sold in small quantities and/or is fairly cheap. Thanks in advance!
 
sammybelle said:
Today's readings:
Ammonia just over 0.25
nitrite=0.5
nitrate=30ppm
pH=6.6, not quite as low as the 6.4 I got for the past 2 days after doing 50% WC x 2 days.

jlk suggested getting some aragonite or crushed coral to slowly add buffers to the water, and dosing ammonia only up to 2.0 ppm instead of the 4.0 I have been doing. Should I do a 50% WC once more to bring up the pH or leave it alone while I go get some crushed coral? In a pinch is it a bad idea to add in a dash of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to bring up the pH? I just don't want things to stall due to low pH while I find some crushed coral, which, by the way, I hope is sold in small quantities and/or is fairly cheap. Thanks in advance!

Sammy im looking for some CC too. No small bag!!!!!
 
Your levels of amm/nitrite look good esp considering you dosed to 4ppm last night! I did expect to see your ph fall though- did you already dose amm today? I am not familiar with using sodium bicarbonate in a tank but i will do some looking! :)
 
Ok- heres a link i found on sodium bicarbonate dosing. I do not know if its accurate or correct nor do i know what kind effect this will have. Please do some more research on this topic before considering trying it. I would be more comfortable just doing a water change & lowering the amm dose to 2ppm & seeing if your tank stays stable at this dose first before trying this method.

Buffering capacity and pH
 
jlk, I guess part of my confusion concerning what to do about the pH of the water lies in what exactly is meant by keeping the pH "stable". To my thinking, I have been trying to achieve a more or less "neutral" pH of 7.0-7.2 or so each time my pH has dropped to 6.4. By "stable" do you mean neither rising nor falling, just staying put at a certain level? Exactly what pH level should that be for a peaceful community tank? How long should it stay at a certain level before it is considered to be "stable"? What is the lowest the pH should go so as not to stall my cycle?
Anyway, I didn't do anything to the water tonight other than dose the ammonia back up to 2.0. I'll just see what the readings are tomorrow; hopefully the pH hasn't crashed some more and I'll be able to get some of the crushed coral tomorrow.
 
Your asking lots of good questions- ill do my best to try & answer them! If i remember correctly, your tank typically sits @7-7.2. 7 is neutral- its neither acidic nor basic (alkaline). Your tanks parameters are perfectly fine for just about any fish except for some specific species that need higher ph environment (i believe certain cichlid species are good example). By stable, i mean your tank stays at its normal ph level without crashing. You can do an additional test on your tap ph as well to make sure its matching your tank level- set out some tap water for 24hrs, preferably with an airstone or bubbler. If you dont have one, just give the water a good stir every so often. Test the ph after 24hrs- this is your actual ph after the water has gassed out. Let us know what this reads.

With fishless cycles, the level of ammonia we are trying to cycle a tank can be an issue. 4ppm is a very high amount that usually isnt seen in typical tank conditions unless the tank is heavily overstocked. This amount is set as an 'ideal' amount to cycle to grow a huge biological filter but its not quite as cut & dry as it seems. In your case, the high dose of ammonia is basically crashing your ph almost daily in the conversion process by using all the buffers in your water. Nitritfication starts to slow down @6.5 and completely stops @6. So, as your ph drops to this level, the ammonia conversion starts to slow & will eventually stop & your cycle stalls. We are trying to keep this from happening by either lowering the amm dose (less conversion=less buffers used=more stable ph) or by adding cr coral/argonite to increase your waters buffer capacity to handle the higher amount of amm. We have to do a bit of experimenting to see how things work for your water. Hope this answers some of your questions- if not, let me know! :)
 
jlk, I guess part of my confusion concerning what to do about the pH of the water lies in what exactly is meant by keeping the pH "stable". To my thinking, I have been trying to achieve a more or less "neutral" pH of 7.0-7.2 or so each time my pH has dropped to 6.4. By "stable" do you mean neither rising nor falling, just staying put at a certain level? Exactly what pH level should that be for a peaceful community tank? How long should it stay at a certain level before it is considered to be "stable"? What is the lowest the pH should go so as not to stall my cycle?
Anyway, I didn't do anything to the water tonight other than dose the ammonia back up to 2.0. I'll just see what the readings are tomorrow; hopefully the pH hasn't crashed some more and I'll be able to get some of the crushed coral tomorrow.

Have you tested your tap water PH? Let a glass of tap water sit out for 24 hours and then test PH; that's your "true" PH and what your tank's PH should be. We say to let it sit out because often the water needs to gas out and then the PH rises or falls. The PH right out of my tap is 8.4 but after it gasses out it falls to about 7.8 which is what my tank's PH is. After cycling your tank should maintain whatever it's natural PH is and most PH's are fine for whatever fish you want with certain exceptions (discus for example). Fish like stability, not fluctuations so it's important to keep the PH stable; you don't want to alter it with chemicals though, just maintain it at whatever it is naturally.

As Jlk mentioned, cycling with ammonia can cause wild fluctuations as the buffers are used up more quickly. Once the cycling process is finished and you have fish the PH should remain stable but it's good to monitor it to be sure.

The downside is that PH crashes -- where PH falls to the low 6's or below 6 -- can hinder or stop the cycle all together as the bacteria you are trying to grow need a PH of at least the mid-6's to multiply effectively.

As was mentioned, adding some crushed coral or argonite to the filter can help stabilize things. You don't want to raise the PH, but keep it stable (a few pinches usually does it but it's an add, test, remove/add, test process). In my tank I keep a few pinches of CC in the tank just to keep things stable in case it falls as my water is fairly soft. If I took it out it would most likely be fine, but no harm leaving it in with fish in there.

I've read about using sodium bicarbonate too but it can cause fluctuations if you don't add the right amount with each water change and it can build up over time. Without fish it might be ok to try it in a pinch but I wouldn't use it with fish in the tank. Getting some CC or argonite is easier and more natural way to stabilize the PH. Unfortunately it only comes in large bags so you'll end up buying more than you'll ever need. You can also do frequent water changes when PH starts to drop now during cycling but if the PH is dropping daily it may be more prudent to invest in some crushed coral.
 
Thanks to you librarygirl and jlk for all the help! I had not yet tested for the "true" pH but I just put the glass out now! So--let me see if I have this right: while the tank is still cycling, I just want to keep the pH at least the mid 6's (and this can be accomplished through PWC) to allow the BB to keep growing. After cycling is done, (and by that I mean that after 24 hours ammonia goes from 2 to 0, nitrites=0, and nitrates may be very high,) I should just do an enormous water change to get nitrates to less than 20. (I was advised to dose ammonia up to 2.0 rather than 4.0 so as to try not to use up buffers). Then, after this large WC should I then check the tank pH after another 24 hours to determine its "true" pH and just strive to maintain the pH at whatever reading that may be?

I feel as if I'm becoming pH-paranoid, for some strange reason :) !
 
I would be a bit ph-paranoid, too! Ideally, we want to keep your ph a bit higher than 6.5 for optimal bacteria growth. Lets stick to the lower dose of amm for now until we can get your ph crash issue resolved. No need to worry yet about when your cycle is finished, but, yes, you will need to do a big wc to get your nitrates as low as possible when its completed. Lets see how your tap reads in 24hrs & we will know for sure what your actual ph is reading. Dont worry too much- we will get you cycled! :)
 
I think I'm almost there...! pH still bugging me, though.

My pH reading yesterday was 6.6, so I changed out about 3 or 4 (can't remember which) gallons of water (55g tank) which brought pH up to 7.2 and then I dosed ammonia up to 2.0.

Today's results are as follows:

Ammonia=0
Nitrites=0
Nitrates=80
pH=6.4

I left a glass of tap water out yesterday to find the "true" pH. I'm about 6 hours short of leaving it out for a full 24 hours, but my reading with the regular pH test was 7.6 and the high range test kit read 7.4. This kind of surprised me; I thought I'd see the numbers go down, if anything. I haven't had a chance to go out and get aragonite; I have a nasty cold! I'm not going to do anything until I get further instructions--Thanks!
 
I am surprised by the ph reading you got for your tap, too! I actually expected it to be 7 or lower. If your sick, just leave the tank be for tonight- nothing will die or starve. When you feel better, I would do a 50% wc & dose the amm back up to 2 & see how things look in 24hrs- as of right now, it looks like your tank is cycled to 2ppm! :)
 
Might be too sick to get into the car and drive, but never too sick to play around with the tank ;-) ! I'll do the WC and dose it back up. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings!
 
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