returning to the hobby, off to a bad start already

[sducky]

Hi. I haven't had an aquarium in 15 years, but when I had them, I had three freshwater tanks. A couple of months ago someone gave me a little 5 gallon desktop tank, and I thought maybe I'd do something small... like some plants and a few cherry shrimp. Well....

I cycled the tank with white clouds (because I'd never heard of fishless cycling 15 years ago), and then I went to my LFS to browse. I figured it was too early to add shrimp but the salesman convinced me to buy a couple of false juliis, which won't bother my shrimp when I get them. I'd never had cories before, but of course I got them home, did some research, and realized I need more than 2 cories, and also a bigger tank. So I went out and bought a 20 gallon setup.

I also read that cories require sand substrate so as not to injure ourselves. So when buying the 20 gallon (this time just at Petsmart), I asked the salesman which sand to buy. He insisted vehemently that you should never put sand in an aquarium, because it can never be cleaned properly. He said cories do fine in gravel. So I bought standard aquarium gravel, which is what I'd always used in the past.

2 weeks later, I notice that my cories are violently banging their little faces against the gravel trying to dig for food. And sure enough, one of them is now missing a barbel. Meanwhile I've grown really attached to them, and I feel like I need to immediately swap out the gravel for sand. The new tank hasn't finished cycling yet, and I'm worried about subjecting the fish to so much change so fast.

Long story short, I got some very dubious advice setting up this new tank, and I'm looking forward to getting it back on track with the help of some experienced forum members. Apparently fish store employees aren't as knowledgeable as they used to be.

 

[Leeatl]

I agree that you got some questionable advice . Many use sand as substrate . That being said , I have many Cory cats , all years old , and I have always used regular smooth gravel . I have 3 planted tanks , all with Cories , and plants and fish do great . Do you feed the cats any kind of algae wafers ? I always have so they can get food , but they still clean up flake food that the other fish miss and I have never seen any damage from them savaging the gravel . As always everyones experiences are different , but this is my 2 cents . Oh , by the way , my cats breed like crazy....lol

 

[cass95]

Cory cat need at least 6 of the same specie, the more the better. Sand is easier to clean because the poop sits on top of it.

 

[sducky]

Thanks!

Leeatl -That's good to hear. At least it doesn't mean I have to immediately run out and replace my gravel. (Although if I'm going to do it, maybe it's better to do it before my tank gets too established with the gravel?)

I am feeding the cories Hikari sinking wafers, which have algae and some other stuff. But I'm not sure I'm giving them enough. The instructions say as much as they can eat in 20 minutes, but that's hard to judge because they don't eat anything right away. It sits on the bottom for a while until they eventually find it. The cories are still pretty tiny, so I've been just giving them 2 little pellets per day, broken in half. Maybe they need more? I did try giving them frozen bloodworms, but they wouldn't touch them.

Do you think that if I give them more of the wafers, they might not dig so hard in the gravel?

They could also be stressed because the new tank is still cycling, and while there's no ammonia, the pH is high... 7.8ish. When I bought the new tank, I used the water and part of the gravel and filter media from the cycled 5 gallon tank, hoping that would minimalize the stress. And I used a bacteria product, but that didn't seem to do anything. I'm only 2 weeks in on the 2nd tank now, but hopefully the water conditions don't get too much worse before they get better.

 

[sducky]

Thanks. That's why I went out and bought a bigger tank. The fish salesman neglected to mention they needed to be kept in shoals when he recommended them for the little 5 gallon. I do hope to add more cories soon, but the bigger tank is cycling now, and I don't want to add to the bio load until it's done. ( was hoping to avoid cycling again by using the same water/gravel/filter media from the 5 gallon, but no luck)

 

[Leeatl]

Do you have a test kit ? Like the API general freshwater kit ? Are you testing for ammonia ? Do you know if tank is cycled or not ? If not then cory cats are very sensitive to ammonia . Search for fish in cycle on here and start water changes . I feed the Hikari wafers and also Cobalt vitamin added waffers every other day . Sounds like you are feeding enough . I think your tank may not be cycled and that is a big problem . Always drop the wafers in the same spot every time and the cats will learn to come there for food . I drop mine just after lights go off and the cats are gathering around that area a half hour before that time waiting...lol

 

[Autumnsky]

Great read to fill in some gaps is the article in my signature.

Also never replace (until it falls apart) or clean the filter pads with tap water, which has Chlorine and often Chloramines (which need stronger treatment than Chlorine alone). Otherwise you kill off your BB which took so long to get.

Poor water quality as found while cycling can cause damage to the barbels.

You need to know what your NitrIte and NitrAte levels are, not just ammonia.

Welcome. Check and double check what "advice" you get, especially at the lfs, even here check and cross check. Then you will know you are doing the best you can for your tank inhabitants! Even at the lfs I hear the clerk /"specialist" give half great advice and then half awful worst ever... No trust! LOL.

 

[sducky]

Thanks for all the responses, and especially the links. In hindsight, I shouldn't have torn down the 5 gallon tank until the 20 gallon was completely cycled. I had hoped that by putting all the stuff from the cycled 5 gallon into the 20 gallon, I'd be able to avoid cycling the 20 gallon, but it obviously didn't work. (Maybe it would have worked if the two tanks were closer to the same size?) Now I'm keeping the ammonia levels down with frequent water changes, but that's probably also slowing down the cycling process. I do have some nitrite in the tank, but not dangerously high. And there's also some nitrates, but very low levels. So it looks like the tank is cycling like it's supposed to... just unfortunately with sensitive fish in it. Unfortunately I have no other place to put them now, so I'm just crossing my fingers they'll make it.

I'm kicking myself for relying on a fish store employee instead of doing research online first. (Although in fairness, it wasn't that guy who told me I wouldn't have to cycle all over again with the 20 gallon. That was my own dumb theory.) When I had my tanks years ago, there wasn't nearly as much info available online, so fish store staff were the best people to ask. Now I know better.

I also decided to set up that 5 gallon again and start a fishless cycle with it, so in the future I'll have a spare tank set up for emergencies or quarantine purposes.

 

[Autumnsky]

You can just add an additional filter pad to your existing set up (usually that is) and it it will build BB and then you can cut a chunk out of it for the new tank and leave the rest in there for a nice colony (if there is carbon chunks just shake them in the yard or trash).

The BB grows based on what it has to consume (reason people use ammonia to cycle with no fish). I have used the double pad very successfully. I try to always even have an additional pad beind rocks in my tank just iin case I need a quick start

 

[Eggheadfish]

Hang in there!!
Keep working through the cycle with the frequent water changes. Some of the nitrifying bacteria may be present already in the gravel so if you switch substrate maybe do it over a period of time. Some people will stuff gravel in some pantyhose and leave it in the tank to give time for transition.
I have sand in all 12 of my tanks and will never ever do gravel again, especially not for cories, but that's just my personal opinion.
If you can get some Seachem Prime it helps detoxify the ammonia to make it safer for the fish while the cycle is establishing.

 

[megi-lin]

I have gravel now and have had no problem with losing barbels. I have one cory cat and will get at least one or two more when my tank is finished cycling. But it has so far had fun with other fish on its own and has done just fine with gravel.

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[Eggheadfish]

Don't get me wrong...if gravel is smooth and kept clean and free of detritus it can be fine. But when you see cories digging for food and blowing the sand they inhaled out of their gills you won't want to go back it's awesome

 

[sducky]

Update... and question... move the fish?

So, update on my situation, along with a new question...

First of all, I know in hindsight it was a bad idea to move my fish into the bigger tank without cycling it first. (Coulda shoulda woulda.) And I did decide to switch to the sand substrate mid cycle, so that probably further slowed down my cycling process.

2 weeks ago I set up the 5 old gallon tank again so it would be ready to use as a quarantine tank down the road when I get more fish. So I moved the original gravel back into the 5 gallon, along with the same old filter, three new plants, and no fish. I threw in some frozen bloodworms, turned up the heat, and left the lights on 16 hours per day. Then I ignored it.

Two weeks later, the 5 gallon tank has no ammonia, no nitrites, and about 20ppm nitrates, along with some algae. The pH is high - about 8.2, but then again I've done no water changes.

Meanwhile, the 20 gallon doesn't seem to be making much progress cycling, even though I've tried to help it along with bacteria. Although the pH went up, I never saw a bump in ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates. I was doing 20% water changes every couple of days, and I was being very careful not to overfeed. So I thought maybe I was keeping the tank TOO clean, and that was keeping it from cycling. So I went without a water change for a week, and I wasn't quite as stingy with the food. Now I have a neutral pH, but nitrites and ammonia both getting close to the .50 mark, and still only 5 ppm nitrates. I put Amquel in there, which is supposed to detoxify the ammonia and nitrites without actually eliminating them (so as not to disrupt the cycle.) But there's no real way to tell if it's working. Meanwhile, my cories aren't eating well and spend most of their time hiding, so I'm worried about them. (Or maybe it's my imagination they're not eating, and they hide because they're afraid of the scary woman who's always staring anxiously at them, I don't know.)

So here's my current dilemma: I now have 2 tanks, neither of which has ideal conditions for fish. I'm worried the 20 gallon is never going to really cycle, because I'm not allowing the ammonia levels to get high enough, because I don't want to kill my fish.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering if the 5 gallon managed to cycle itself under my regime of neglect. It seems unlikely that it would have done so in 2 weeks. On the other hand, you'd think a couple of rotting bloodworm gum drops in that small a tank would have produced some ammonia in 2 weeks time, so if there isn't any, and no nitrites, maybe it's cycled. On my imaginary extra third hand, my 20 gallon tank had the same readings - high pH, low everything else - for weeks, and it clearly hadn't cycled.

Once I get the pH down on the 5 gallon I'm tempted to put the cories back into that tank temporarily, until I can get the 20 gallon tank properly cycled. But I don't know whether to trust that the 5 gallon is really cycled either, and I worry that the move would be more stressful than leaving them where they are, considering that the Amquel might be protecting them from the toxins anyway.

What do you think I should do? Move the cories or leave them where they are and hope for the best?

And if you're still reading this, God bless you. I don't know how you have the patience. My husband just shakes his head and walks out of the room.

 

[megi-lin]

Lol your husband is funny. For all this I suggest a biowheel to get a fast cycle done. I would do it in both tanks. Clean your 5gal. And move your cories if they still show signs of stress in a few days.

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[Tropical Aquarist]

I just skimmed over this thread, glad you found us!

For cycling with fish, Tetra Safe Start is what I used. It contains a patented strain of live bacteria that will instantly cycle your tank. I would get a bottle of this and dump it in, then leave the tank for 2 weeks without water changes and your tank should be cycled. How many fish are in there at the moment?

Cycling doesn't have to be hard, if you do it the right way! Also do you have any friends with fish? If you can get some of the filter media, that would be excellent as well as it contains the bacteria you need. In fact that's how I start a new tank, just take some of the media from another tank.

I too have kept cories on gravel for years, it just makes it harder for them to scavenge. I actually converted all my tanks to sand/plant substrates, no more gravel!

 

[Eggheadfish]

If the 5g really is cycled, which it sounds as though it is based on the test results, squeeze the goop from the filter into the 20g media to help it along.

 

[megi-lin]

If the 5g really is cycled, which it sounds as though it is based on the test results, squeeze the goop from the filter into the 20g media to help it along.

This is a great idea. Have the lfs check your water to see.

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[sducky]

Thanks. At first I used a bacterial product made by API that specifically said it didn't need to be refrigerated, but that didn't seem to do anything. Finally I bought a bottle of Cycle, which is what I've used in the past, and it does need to be refrigerated. It didn't "instantly" cycle my tank, but within a few days I started to see no ammonia, high nitrites and then high nitrates, so it was clear that the cycling wasn't completely stalled any more.

 

[sducky]

So, I took advice from several of you guys (thanks!). I put the old ugly HOB biowheel on the tank in addition to the Aqueon underwater filter I was using. I went out and bought a bottle of Cycle and used that instead of the API Quickstart, which didn't seem to be effective at all. And within a few days, the ammonia was nil and the nitrites and nitrates shot up, which at least indicated to me that the cycling was no longer stalled. After a few water changes, I got the nitrite problem under control, so it seems I might be almost done cycling.

But here's my new dilemma. All the water parameters appear to be healthy now except for the pH. I have two different tanks both at 7.8, and I haven't had a lot of luck getting and keeping it close to neutral. What's really odd is that I'm getting exactly the same pH on both Aquariums... when one has been going through a fishless cycle for about 3 weeks, and the other has been going through a cycle WITH fish for a couple of months.

So today - and I don't know why I didn't think of this before - I tested the pH straight out of the tap. It was 7.8. So then I got on the county web site and looked up the water quality report. pH varies for different L.A. reservoirs, but a lot of them are listed around 7.5. And I've read that pH straight out of the tap is actually LOWER than that of water that's been aerated with a filter or airstone, or even just allowed to sit for a few hours. So maybe the problem is simply that our local water is not neutral pH. And it's fairly hard water, so it probably contains enough buffers that it stubbornly returns to 7.8, even after you put pH lowering products into it. (I used Amquel Plus on one of the tanks, and it did lower the pH for about a week, but then it went right back up.)

So here's my dilemma: do I just not worry about lowering my pH, if that's what the water naturally wants to be? Or is there a product I can use that will keep it at a STABLE neutral pH? I find myself wary of using additives that are going to turn my aquariums into a constant daily chemistry project and cause pH swings every time I do a water change. It almost feels like it's better to just have a pH that's not ideal, but is at least stable. But then again, 7.8 seems awfully high. If it were 7.3 or 7.4, I probably wouldn't worry. Are the fish going to be ok with 7.8? I've got cories and white clouds, but I kind of wanted to add some tetras, otos, and maybe a few shrimp once the tank is more established.

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

So, I took advice from several of you guys (thanks!). I put the old ugly HOB biowheel on the tank in addition to the Aqueon underwater filter I was using. I went out and bought a bottle of Cycle and used that instead of the API Quickstart, which didn't seem to be effective at all. And within a few days, the ammonia was nil and the nitrites and nitrates shot up, which at least indicated to me that the cycling was no longer stalled. After a few water changes, I got the nitrite problem under control, so it seems I might be almost done cycling.

But here's my new dilemma. All the water parameters appear to be healthy now except for the pH. I have two different tanks both at 7.8, and I haven't had a lot of luck getting and keeping it close to neutral. What's really odd is that I'm getting exactly the same pH on both Aquariums... when one has been going through a fishless cycle for about 3 weeks, and the other has been going through a cycle WITH fish for a couple of months.

So today - and I don't know why I didn't think of this before - I tested the pH straight out of the tap. It was 7.8. So then I got on the county web site and looked up the water quality report. pH varies for different L.A. reservoirs, but a lot of them are listed around 7.5. And I've read that pH straight out of the tap is actually LOWER than that of water that's been aerated with a filter or airstone, or even just allowed to sit for a few hours. So maybe the problem is simply that our local water is not neutral pH. And it's fairly hard water, so it probably contains enough buffers that it stubbornly returns to 7.8, even after you put pH lowering products into it. (I used Amquel Plus on one of the tanks, and it did lower the pH for about a week, but then it went right back up.)

So here's my dilemma: do I just not worry about lowering my pH, if that's what the water naturally wants to be? Or is there a product I can use that will keep it at a STABLE neutral pH? I find myself wary of using additives that are going to turn my aquariums into a constant daily chemistry project and cause pH swings every time I do a water change. It almost feels like it's better to just have a pH that's not ideal, but is at least stable. But then again, 7.8 seems awfully high. If it were 7.3 or 7.4, I probably wouldn't worry. Are the fish going to be ok with 7.8? I've got cories and white clouds, but I kind of wanted to add some tetras, otos, and maybe a few shrimp once the tank is more established.

Fish can adapt, it's better to have consistent water, then have it change all the time. Most fish will do fine, all live bearers do best in hard water.

Fish to stay away from: Rams and wild caught tetras. Neons and cardinals especially.

Captive bred tetras (such as lemons, Serpaes, skirt/widow, pristella) and cories (Bronze, albino, peppered, Pygmy) should do fine. Barbs would also work well.


I would not worry about it too much.