Safe NH4+ Levels?

[ridewithme38]

Ok so here's my thing, i'm trying to cycle a stubborn tank...

I've been using both the API Test kit(NH3 & NH4+) AND the SeaChem Ammonia Alert(NH4+) i used Prime for all my Water changes and dose pretty heavy

Now the SeaChem Ammonia Alert has been showing no change in color...While the API Test kit shows an Ammonia level of around 2.0...No Nitrites or Nitrates levels yet

Does this mean the Ammonia being detected by the API kit is only seeing NH4+(Ammonium) AND what Ammonium level is dangerous to fish?

I'm going to do a couple 50% water changes right now....But i think it would be good to know, in general, if there IS an Ammonium level that is dangerous to fish

 

[aqua_chem]

Big question is: what's your pH?

 

[ridewithme38]

Big question is: what's your pH?

It tends to sway between 7.6 and 7.8...or atleast that is my estimate...with the API test kit is looks like the highest on the low PH test and the lowest on the High PH test

I know that Ammonium is a percentage of Ammonia based on PH and temperature(my temperature sways between 72-76) thats all a part of total Ammonia, but i'm not sure how that is effected by dosing with Prime...i would think since its labeled at detoxifying ammonia, that it would decrease the base percentage of ammonia to ammonium

 

[aqua_chem]

While the exact mechanism of how Prime detoxifies ammonia while leaving it available to bb isn't known (Seachem has is classified as a trade secret), I doubt that this is what you're seeing. Rather, your NH3 isn't high enough for ammonia guard to detect it..



To my knowledge, ammonium is almost entirely non-toxic. The mechanism by which ammonia and nitrite are toxic does not apply to ammonium

 

[ridewithme38]

While the exact mechanism of how Prime detoxifies ammonia while leaving it available to bb isn't known (Seachem has is classified as a trade secret), I doubt that this is what you're seeing. Rather, your NH3 isn't high enough for ammonia guard to detect it..

To my knowledge, ammonium is almost entirely non-toxic. The mechanism by which ammonia and nitrite are toxic does not apply to ammonium

Thank you Aqua Chem, its interesting how the API Kit is reading its Total Ammonia levels above 2.0ppm yet the Ammonia Alert is reading nothing, i understand the mechanism(although if my ammonia Alert is faulty, that throws everything out the window) Total ammonia(NH3 + NH4+) vs Free ammonia(NH3 Only)....I wonder how it works with prime detoxifying Nitrites and Nitrates also...could you also get false positive/negative test results because of it?

The Chemistry behind aquariums is such an interesting thing!

 

[aqua_chem]

Thank you Aqua Chem, its interesting how the API Kit is reading its Total Ammonia levels above 2.0ppm yet the Ammonia Alert is reading nothing, i understand the mechanism(although if my ammonia Alert is faulty, that throws everything out the window) Total ammonia(NH3 + NH4+) vs Free ammonia(NH3 Only)....I wonder how it works with prime detoxifying Nitrites and Nitrates also...could you also get false positive/negative test results because of it?

The Chemistry behind aquariums is such an interesting thing!

If ammonia guard is detecting ONLY free ammonia, and Prime sequesters free ammonia such that Amm. Guard can't detect, than a false negative is possible.

I think Amm. Guard was designed as early detection, at a time when you wouldn't have prime in your tank.

 

[jlk]

Im just wondering here, but ammonium is toxic to humans (and mammals). It particularly affects the skin & mucous membranes (nose, eyes, mouth, intestines, etc). How does this not have some affect on fish? Yes, its less toxic than ammonia but i dont see how it could possibily be healthy for them in any amount.

 

[aqua_chem]

Healthy? No. Nontoxic? Probably.


When you're talking about ammonium, I assume you're talking about the salts? "Ammonium" is ambiguous, as it doesn't include a proper counter ion. Salts will also react differently than ammoniumXXXXX in solution. Aqueous ammonium still isn't very toxic, but at most biologically relevant pHs, there will still be some ammonia present.

As

 

[ridewithme38]

good link!

Ammonia Toxicity

 

[librarygirl]

I'm assuming there are fish in the tank? I'd personally trust the API test over the Ammonia alert, particularly when fish are involved. Why take the chance and harm the fish? Water changes never hurt and can always help. With ammonia at 2 I'd break out the buckets and do a few 50% water changes back-to-back.

 

[ridewithme38]

I'm assuming there are fish in the tank? I'd personally trust the API test over the Ammonia alert, particularly when fish are involved. Why take the chance and harm the fish? Water changes never hurt and can always help. With ammonia at 2 I'd break out the buckets and do a few 50% water changes back-to-back.

The Ammonia Alert is made by Seachem, we trust them with Prime to eliminate Chlorine and detoxify ammonia...why not their testing supplies so see if that ammonia is detoxified?....

When doing a fishless cycle, its suggested to keep the Ammonia around 4ppm because that leads to the strongest, fastest growing Nitrofying bacteria, so it would make sense that an ammonia level below 4ppm would hinder nitrofying bacteria growth...if we can keep the Ammonia detoxified, why not keep the ammonia as high as possible....the trick is making 100% sure that all the ammonia is in the form of NH4+ instead of NH3....

I think thats the next thing i'm going to research