Seachem's Stability & Water Changes...

[Mumma.of.two]

Jeta asked the pH because depending on the pH and the temp of the water different levels of ammonia are toxic. Also if the pH fluctuates it can effect the cycle (stall or slow it)
As for the Goldie's in the ten, if the only reason they are not in the 60 is because it's not cycled, they would be far better off in the larger tank with more water volume to dilute the toxins. The 10g is most definitely not cycled.

 

[RussellC]

I am responding from my phone this time so forgive me if I have missed some of the details in the thread.

If you have detectable ammonia or nitrite in any amount, the tank's cycle isn't fully established. That said, your readings indicate both tanks are cycling.

All other things being equal, why not move one or more goldie to the 60? If both tanks are cycling, better to fish-in cycle in the 60 as ammonia and nitrite spikes will be diluted by the larger water volume.

Again, I may be missing some of the detail here so am willing to stand corrected if I did.

Good luck!

 

[jetajockey]

Yup I asked the pH since ammonia toxicity is relative to pH readings. Either way, the big tank is fine, I wouldn't do a PWC on it unless you just felt froggy, it's not going to make a significant difference toxin-wise as there isn't enough there to hurt anything. And definitely take some of the goldies out of the 10 if you can, leave it with only 1, and do a PWC on it to get the level back down. The less bioload in the tank the easier it is maintain a safe toxin level.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

With water in the 60 have you put any Prime in there today? If not you could put prime in the detoxify the ammonia and nitrite that is there now instead of doing water change now, but would recommend doing a water change tomorrow and add more prime with the water change.
The 10 yes I would do a 50% change now with those reading

Okay -- well, I did a top-off of the 60 with Prime, and did a 50% change on the 10 gallon; the 10 gallon's water looks a little better...Prime was added to that tank before the new water went in, as well...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Jeta asked the pH because depending on the pH and the temp of the water different levels of ammonia are toxic. Also if the pH fluctuates it can effect the cycle (stall or slow it)

Okay; I will attempt to get a pH reading on both tanks as soon as I can...been a bit exhausting here trying to get this 60 back up and running, plus monitoring the changes in the 10...

As for the Goldie's in the ten, if the only reason they are not in the 60 is because it's not cycled, they would be far better off in the larger tank with more water volume to dilute the toxins. The 10g is most definitely not cycled.

I understand, but there is more at play here, notably the behavior of the Red Cap who originally killed the two that were in our large tank -- I don't want to re-introduce this fish to the 60 gallon because he is showing aggressive tendencies, and I don't want the Black Moor to be rattled any more than she is because she's extremely docile and we're simply lucky to have had her survive this infection.

Beyond that, I don't really want the other two that are in there with the Red Cap to be separated from him because then, we have a "breakup of community" issue amongst all of them where the Red Cap looked like he was "longing for company" if you can believe that -- what's strange about the whole thing is that the Red Cap Oranda, in this small 10 gallon, isn't picking on these other two small fish with him, yet in the 60 gallon, he chased two much larger fantails to the point he injured them with aggressive pecking; to be honest, I don't know what is going on in these tanks anymore...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

I am responding from my phone this time so forgive me if I have missed some of the details in the thread.

If you have detectable ammonia or nitrite in any amount, the tank's cycle isn't fully established. That said, your readings indicate both tanks are cycling.

All other things being equal, why not move one or more goldie to the 60? If both tanks are cycling, better to fish-in cycle in the 60 as ammonia and nitrite spikes will be diluted by the larger water volume.

Again, I may be missing some of the detail here so am willing to stand corrected if I did.

Good luck!

Thanks Russell, I appreciate the reply...

Well, the 10 gallon has been up and running for two weeks with a Stability treatment for the first week, only initially housing one Red Cap Oranda (the one we separated from the 60 gallon after he viciously attacked the two larger fantails in the 60 and ultimately opened wounds that caused the bacterial infection which wiped out our tank)...he looked like he was doing well after the week of Stability, so we added two very small goldies to give him company, and they too have been doing well since being added; the thing is, I am getting high ammonia levels (someone on another site actually told me the ammonia levels in the 10 gallon didn't alarm him, believe that or not...) on the 10 gallon undoubtedly due to (now that I found out) an uncompleted cycle and overstocking of the water. At any rate, I did a 50% change and their water looks better, at least...

As for why I don't really want to move a goldie to the 60 right now, please see my comments to Mumma above...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Yup I asked the pH since ammonia toxicity is relative to pH readings. Either way, the big tank is fine, I wouldn't do a PWC on it unless you just felt froggy, it's not going to make a significant difference toxin-wise as there isn't enough there to hurt anything. And definitely take some of the goldies out of the 10 if you can, leave it with only 1, and do a PWC on it to get the level back down. The less bioload in the tank the easier it is maintain a safe toxin level.

Thanks a lot, jeta...

I will do my best to get pH readings, but for now, I simply did a 50% (approx.) change on the 10 gallon, vacuuming the gravel good and replacing it with fresh Prime-treated water; the quality looks better.

As for the 60 gallon, thank you for putting my mind at ease about that -- here is the thing with that tank, though:

The water looked SO good upon restart -- CRYSTAL CLEAR with a brilliance I have never seen before because the tank was so sterile. I want that back! Since putting the Stability in, the water has turned very cloudy and I understand this is due to the bacteria taking hold, but here's my question: I don't think I even have enough Stability to last the week anyway, so would it be okay to just dose with this stuff until I run out even if it's not the full 7 days? If so, will the water eventually return to that brilliantly clear, crystal-clean appearance?

 

[RussellC]

I understand, but there is more at play here, notably the behavior of the Red Cap who originally killed the two that were in our large tank -- I don't want to re-introduce this fish to the 60 gallon because he is showing aggressive tendencies, and I don't want the Black Moor to be rattled any more than she is because she's extremely docile and we're simply lucky to have had her survive this infection.

Do I understand correctly that you have the Black Moor alone in the 60 and the Red Cap along with two other smaller fish in the 10?

If so, the way I look at it, and in my opinion, you have a couple of issues you're dealing with:

First, both tanks are cycling (since both have some measurable aount of ammonia and/or nitrite).

Second, you have the aggressiveness of the Oranda.

The simplest way to minimize the risks associated with both issues at the same time, in my opinion, is to move everyone but the Oranda into the 60 gallon. Three of the four fish will get the benefit of the larger tank's dilution, while the remaining Oranda will also get some benefit from the reduced bioload during cycling since its tankmates will be elsewhere.

This also resolves the nipping problem.

Now, this is just my opinion, but it would seem that combining the goals of having everyone get through the cycling with minimal impact and at the same time separating the Oranda would outweigh any 'loss of community' concerns you have with the Oranda.

Once the 60 is fully cycled, I'd then move the Oranda... and keep a very close eye out for any trouble, especially at first. While goldfish *can* be nippy, agression is unusual. I think it's possible that less than ideal water chemistry in the tank when the Oranda was intially introduced could have stressed the fish and contributed to the the aggressive behavior. Some people get more aggressive when they're stressed too. It's possible you might have better luck reintroducing the Oranda once the 60's cycle is fully established and the water chemistry is stable.

And even if trouble erupts again, you have a cycled 10 to move the Oranda to, and the Moor, after having lived in good and stable water chemistry, will be stronger and better able to withstand any trouble the Oranda might dish out before you have the chance to separate them.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Good luck!

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Russell,

First of all, allow me to first say THANK YOU so VERY MUCH for taking the time to think all this out and relay it to me -- this is VERY kind of you, and very much appreciated by me...

Do I understand correctly that you have the Black Moor alone in the 60 and the Red Cap along with two other smaller fish in the 10?

Correct. Based on the way circumstances happened...

If so, the way I look at it, and in my opinion, you have a couple of issues you're dealing with:

First, both tanks are cycling (since both have some measurable aount of ammonia and/or nitrite).

Seems to be correct -- the 10 gallon is a week ahead, or more, of the 60 gallon but even after a week of Stability dosing, it still seems to be exhibiting high ammonia and other levels, so it's either high stocking issues or a cycle...

Second, you have the aggressiveness of the Oranda.

Correct.

The simplest way to minimize the risks associated with both issues at the same time, in my opinion, is to move everyone but the Oranda into the 60 gallon. Three of the four fish will get the benefit of the larger tank's dilution, while the remaining Oranda will also get some benefit from the reduced bioload during cycling since its tankmates will be elsewhere.

This also resolves the nipping problem.

Now, this is just my opinion, but it would seem that combining the goals of having everyone get through the cycling with minimal impact and at the same time separating the Oranda would outweigh any 'loss of community' concerns you have with the Oranda.

Once the 60 is fully cycled, I'd then move the Oranda... and keep a very close eye out for any trouble, especially at first. While goldfish *can* be nippy, agression is unusual. I think it's possible that less than ideal water chemistry in the tank when the Oranda was intially introduced could have stressed the fish and contributed to the the aggressive behavior. Some people get more aggressive when they're stressed too. It's possible you might have better luck reintroducing the Oranda once the 60's cycle is fully established and the water chemistry is stable.

And even if trouble erupts again, you have a cycled 10 to move the Oranda to, and the Moor, after having lived in good and stable water chemistry, will be stronger and better able to withstand any trouble the Oranda might dish out before you have the chance to separate them.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Good luck!

You know what, Russ? That makes TOTAL and utter sense to me and is very logical -- I didn't even consider the fact that it could have been the water quality that perhaps made the Oranda aggressive...it didn't occur to me. While that may in fact be true, I don't know...he just LOOKED like he was "on the hunt" for the other fish in the tank, and initially, we even thought this may have been a male/two female mating ritual of some kind, hence why we didn't act as quickly as we should have. Further, he DID in fact go after the two small ones we introduced into the 10 gallon in the very beginning -- but nothing like what he was doing to the two in the 60 gallon, and that seems to have worn off from all perspectives. So, I really don't know if it's just that he's super-aggressive and wants to be a dominant alpha male of a tank, or it was possibly a stress-related issue -- and I am well aware of the fact that goldfish aren't normally aggressive, so that's why this whole thing is just weird. Of course, with the way these stores get fish in today, they could have just been cross-bred and "domesticated" through a wildly long strain, so who knows...

But you make some EXCELLENT points about the procedure with the tanks and the stocking/high toxicity levels. I will definitely consider all of them. Thank you.

 

[RussellC]

But you make some EXCELLENT points about the procedure with the tanks and the stocking/high toxicity levels. I will definitely consider all of them. Thank you.

I'm just glad you found my opinion somewhat helpful.

Rooting for all four of your goldies!

Best!

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Thanks very much!

Another quick question that may seem rudimentary to you: My two HOB filters SHOULD be running during this whole cycling/re-establishment process in the 60 gallon, correct? Don't shut them down at all?

 

[Mumma.of.two]

Keep them both running at all times (except water changes). You are trying to establish bacteria colonies in both of them.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

As I try and get some closure with this particular thread subject, I want to first say thank you to everyone who has contributed opinions and insight.

Here's where I stand right now with the cycling 60-gallon: I don't think I even have enough Stability to finish the 7-day routine (I am on day three, but running low in the bottle; I could of course buy some more, but...) so if I do run out, is it okay to just stop using the Stability before the 7 days are up? I just want to confirm this is okay to do to the water and the one fish in there now...

If I do stop the Stability, am I going to need to do regular water changes while the bacteria buildup "catches up" and makes up for the Stability termination? Should I just let the tests dictate, as a few members have suggested, whether the water needs changing during the cycle process? Finally, can I expect my water to clear up and get really transparent-looking again as it did the day upon re-start once I stop the Stability?

And also -- my two HOB filters SHOULD be running during this cycle process, correct? I shouldn't shut them down for anything, should I?

Thank you...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Keep them both running at all times (except water changes). You are trying to establish bacteria colonies in both of them.

Thank you, Mumma!

 

[Mumma.of.two]

As I try and get some closure with this particular thread subject, I want to first say thank you to everyone who has contributed opinions and insight.

Here's where I stand right now with the cycling 60-gallon: I don't think I even have enough Stability to finish the 7-day routine (I am on day three, but running low in the bottle; I could of course buy some more, but...) so if I do run out, is it okay to just stop using the Stability before the 7 days are up? I just want to confirm this is okay to do to the water and the one fish in there now...

Perfectly fine to stop. It will do no harm whatsoever.

If I do stop the Stability, am I going to need to do regular water changes while the bacteria buildup "catches up" and makes up for the Stability termination? Should I just let the tests dictate, as a few members have suggested, whether the water needs changing during the cycle process?

As the tests dictate. Any stability in the water is fine to leave or remove.

Finally, can I expect my water to clear up and get really transparent-looking again as it did the day upon re-start once I stop the Stability?

it may or it may not clear up when the stability stops but it will eventually clear. Your tanks not going to stay cloudy for ever I promise.

And also -- my two HOB filters SHOULD be running during this cycle process, correct? I shouldn't shut them down for anything, should I?

Thank you...

only for water changes.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Perfectly fine to stop. It will do no harm whatsoever.

Thank you.

As the tests dictate. Any stability in the water is fine to leave or remove. it may or it may not clear up when the stability stops but it will eventually clear. Your tanks not going to stay cloudy for ever I promise.

Thank you.

only for water changes.

Third time's a charm...

Thank you!