Starting to panic

[Bast2412]

I need help in deciding when and how to move my fish from their current aquarium to a new set-up.

I started off with no intention of starting an aquarium, but fell into this by a spur of the moment decision to play a goldfish ping pong game at the county fair. I won 3, only 1 of which survived. I didn't even stop to think that summer day about the cruelty involved with this game, though I think I now understand.

I have made every newbie mistake since then. I'll spare you the details, but let's just say that this all ended up with my having a 10 gallon tank with 1 goldfish, 5 neon tetras and an albino pleco. The goldfish has tripled in size and everyone has seemed happy, though I know this is grossly overstocked.
I wanted to move them to a bigger home, though current available space has temporarily limited the size to a 20 gallon (on the kitchen counter and a 20 gallon long tank is the largest that will fit until I can move furniture around and get a larger tank elsewhere.)

So, I set up the new tank, moved over a couple of plants, put in new gravel and then transferred a third of the old gravel over. I put in 2 new airstones, and then moved the rock/gravel pack from the filter over into the new tank as well, though I left the filter in the old tank. I moved over all of the goofy decorations and a piece of driftwood as well. I used the water dechlorinator on filtered tap water and filled it about 2/3 of the way full.

Articles that I have read and the pet store guy said you can run it this way for 24 to 48 hours then transfer everything over. Given previous experiences, I was nervous. I have been testing my water with Tetra 5-in-1 strips and I always have some nitrates (20 ppm usually, but 40 ppm if I haven't changed the water in a bit) and zero nitrites, pH about 6.8 to 7.2. Thinking I would help myself through this transition time, I bought the API ammonia testing kit today.

Here's where I started to panic . . .

I tested the new aquarium and had 1 ppm of ammonia, maybe 20 ppm nitrates, no nitrites, pH7.8.

I then tested the old aquarium and found 2 maybe 4 ppm!!!! (color differences are little difficult to discern.) nitrates maybe 20 ppm, pH 6.8.

I tested my tap water and got a reading of 0.5 ppm! After reading, I guess I have chloramines, because the number came down to zero after I treated it.

I figured that the new aquarium sounds safer right now than the old, so I decided to attempt to move over the goldfish (who has proven himself a survivor.) I bagged him and tried to acclimate him to the new tank over 20 to 30 minutes then released him.

I then did a 50% water change in the old tank and brough the ammonia down to 1 or 2 ppm and then threw in a little Amquel Plus. Once done I checked out the new tank and found my goldfish just sitting at the bottom in the corner. He did not look good. I'm attached to this little guy now, so I kind of panicked, thinking that maybe the pH difference was too much to overcome. He seemed happier in the old toxic tank, so I moved him back and he returned to life. (Though I have since found a review that suggests pH difference concerns are overblown and that studies that have been done show that fish can tolerate a difference of 2 without too much stress.)

Now I am at a loss for how to proceed. My plan was to just transfer everyone today including the remaining plants and gravel as well as the filter, but the goldfish reaction has me unnerved.

I have been reading all day, and I am more confused than ever. Suggestions appreciated.

Just when I thought I had this all figured out!

 

[Mrs.h2012]

Strips are highly inaccurate. And secondly goldfish and tetras and the pleco do not belong together. Goldfish are cold water fish, the tetras and pleco are tropical fish. Hopefully someone who know about gold fish can chime in on what to do about it, I don't know a thing about goldfish.

 

[Rivercats]

Wow I hope I've got all this right but one thing is a ph change even a significant one usually won't bother a fish but if the water has a much higher Kh/Gh then that can shock a fish.

Now here's where I am kind of lost... what is the ammonia reading in both tanks now and what is the ammonia reading on your tap water.

Next what is the nitrate reading on both tanks and your tap water.

Lets start with these and go from there.

 

[librarygirl]

^ good questions. It seems like there might be ammonia and/or nitrates in your tap water, but test again to be sure. Strips aren't truly accurate though; if you get can the API Master liquid test it'll be more on target.

With that said, yes that 10 was grossly overstocked. I'll let you read this guide, written by a member here who has experience with goldfish: http://www.myaquariumclub.com/goldfish-101-11174823.html Basically fancy goldfish need at least a 20 gal for the first goldfish, 10 gals for each additional. As they grow they need a larger tank though. Comets, commos and koi (some of which are usually carnival fish) need ponds as they get to large for house tanks. Goldfish are messy and also require a lot of filtration.

Goldfish are coldwater fish; tetras and plecos are tropical, so there's a mis-match there (although some have kept plecos with goldfish; sometimes the pleco will suck on the goldfish though). Plecos are also messy fish and some can grow quite large; do you know the type of pleco? Common plecos are often sold at fish stores but they grow massive (14+") and will require hundreds of gallons for a full-grown fish. The one thing I've learned is never trust advice a pet store gives you; ask other hobbyists and do your own research.

I doubt a small PH fluctuation would matter much. The PH out of my tap is 8.2 before it gasses off to 7.2 (what my tank's PH is) and I do 50% water changes weekly without issues. To get your true PH, test it out of the tap, then let a glass of water sit for 24 hours (stir it occasionally) and then test PH again. This is your true ph and what your tank's PH should be.

The 10 gal seems like it wasn't cycled, althoug that many fish in an underfiltered tank that is too small to house them probably would have problems growing enough bacteria to sustain the fish. The 20 gal is better but there are still some issues.

These links might help too:
I just learned about cycling but I already have fish. What now?! - Aquarium Advice
Guide to Starting a Freshwater Aquarium - Aquarium Advice

 

[Bast2412]

re: panic

I know these fish aren't the best to have together. Like I said, I have made all of the newbie mistakes. All has been going well for a few months now, everyone seemed active, eating . . . all was good. I am now trying to make the best of a less than ideal situation.

All of this happened today. So when I checked this afternoon:

New tank
pH 7.8
Nitrates 20 ppm
Nitrites zero
Ammonia 1 ppm

Old tank after the water change
pH 6.8 to 7.0 (darn strips, hard to tell)
Nitrates 20 ppm
Nitrites zero
Ammonia 1 to 2 ppm (my color discrimination maybe isn't the best?)

I have hard water, so that is the same in both tanks, 300.
KH 40 to 80, same in both.

Could this be that the lower pH is protecting from the effects of the ammonia in the old tank?

 

[Bast2412]

reanic

I am using a liquid test kit from API for ammonia. The strips are for the other things.

My old tank had gone a little cloudy this week, thus prompting me to think I needed to move ahead. I think my goldfish has gotten too big. He was tiny when I got him, but has been thriving! So probably I am in the middle of new cycle in my old tank.

The pleco is an albino bristlenose, so supposed to be a little guy. He cleaned up all the diatoms in my aquarium.

My tank definitely did cycle initially and has been good for months. I had a crazy bacteria bloom 1 month in during the initial start-up with all the numbers that added up and then one day, poof, clear water. I really think that the goldfish growing as well as he has forced it out of balance.

 

[Rivercats]

Yes that can exactly be the issue. Goldfish produce alot of ammonia and if big enough WC's aren't done the buffers in the water are depleted causing a drop in Ph.

 

[Bast2412]

Reanic

I'm thinking the lower pH in the older tank is protective from the ammonia from my reading today. So, probably keep the old tank going and do water changes and do my best to keep the fish going there until the new tank has cycled?

I'll do the tap water tests suggested I did today, but didn't pay attention to the pH...I THINK it was rather alkaline.

 

[Rivercats]

Actually this is the one time I would keep using water from the old tank in the new tank to lower the ph quicker.

 

[Bast2412]

Thank you, Rivercats. I was wondering about that right before I saw your reply

As the fish are acting ok in the old tank, maybe move over some water over a few days and transfer once the numbers match? Or all at once? All at once then I'd lose whatever safety net that old tank seems to be providing. Though, logically, shouldn't I be diluting down the toxins with the bigger tank if I transferred all at once?

Happy New Year to all!

 

[Rivercats]

I wouldn't do all of them at once. Move one and wait a few days to be sure it's going to do fine. Then think about moving others. Also monitor the water closely to see how your readings are in the bigger tank.

 

[Bast2412]

Just an update...

I did 3 50% water changes in the old tank over the 36 hours following my post. I found then that all parameters matched except ammonia was 1 in the old tank and 0.5 in the new tank. I moved the goldfish to the new larger tank and he seemed to tolerate it well. I then vacuumed the heck out of the old tank and rinsed the filter songs in the old tank in a bowl of water from the tank. I added Cycle to both tanks. The new tank now has an ammonia of 0.25 and trace nitrates and the old tank has ammonia of 0.5. pH is 7 in both. Things are looking up. I'm thinking I'll leave the other fish in the old tank for the foreseeable future and just monitor closely.

Here is a great link showing the effects of pH and temperature on ammonia toxicity. I think this explains what was happening.

Ammonia Toxicity

Thank you for your help!