Stocking Verification Requested.

[NeonJulie]

I am currently half way through a fishless cycle which appears to be going quite well. (API tests indicate I'm through the Ammonia curve, and now I'm working on the Nitrite curve, in about 1 weeks' time.)

I have been doing research on my tank since September, regarding stocking etc., but every expert seems to have their own ideas on what overstocking is.

Stocking Questions:

1. Tank size

The tank is a 12g Eclipse. 21lx11.5wx17.5h. It's located in a no-window bathroom, conveniently right next to a toilet/bathtub. (I anticipate weekly, maybe bi weekly water changes.)

2. Current filtration

The filtration is the included standard HOB unit, (it seems to put out a lot of water), with carbon filter media. It includes a BioWheel. In addition, I have a bubble stone in the tank. (I had heard it helps if you have to treat a fish for disease.)

3. Type of substrate

The gravel portion of the Substrate is black gravel, with a sprinkle of white coated gravel (from earlier bacteria growth before I decided to redecorate to dark colors.) Also included is a clay pot and a rainbow rock.

4. pH of your water

The pH has been a slight challenge, because I have kH issues which I'm currently working out. It appears to range between 7-7.4. It usually stays around 7.4. (A piece of driftwood may have accounted for the slight drop.)

5. What type of fish you like the most.

I have tried to design this tank to be the best fit for Neon Tetras. Even though they can be a challenge, I'm drawn to them the most. I want to do whatever I can to make caring for them a success. I plan to order my entire stock of fish from Drs. Foster and Smith's live ordering site, Liveaquaria. I don't trust my LFS to have a good healthy stock of them.

Based on months of research, I am hoping the following will work:

Top Level: (1) Honey Dwarf Gourami and (2) Guppies

Mid Level: (6-7) Neon Tetras - I hear 1 Neon doesn't add much to the bioload. I'm wondering if they might be more comfortable with 7.

Bottom Level: (2) Otocinclus (Dwarf) Catfish and (2) Amano Shrimp

You can see a photo of the tank here. (Although I will be re-scaping the plants/floating plants around to accommodate the Gourami.)

Thank you for your comments.

 

[JDogg]

not bad IMO.... one issue i see

Bottom Level: (2) Otocinclus (Dwarf) Catfish and (2) Amano Shrimp

i do not recomend otos unless you plant to have live plants... same with the shrimp

 

[NeonJulie]

It appears that I'm already getting some algae though, against my best efforts to keep it totally dark. (When I'm not in there testing.)

Will the Otos not be happy with zucchini/wafers etc?

Oh and would floating some plants be sufficient? Years ago we had plants, we had a hard time keeping them looking nice and fresh (they got brownish around the edges.) But I could be convinced in adding one or two plants at some point, provided their care is more or less simplified. :/

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[JDogg]

It appears that I'm already getting some algae though, against my best efforts to keep it totally dark. (When I'm not in there testing.)

Will the Otos not be happy with zucchini/wafers etc?

Oh and would floating some plants be sufficient? Years ago we had plants, we had a hard time keeping them looking nice and fresh (they got brownish around the edges.) But I could be convinced in adding one or two plants at some point, provided their care is more or less simplified. :/

Thank you for your feedback.

there are a few kinds of low mantainace plants..example java fern...have you considered snails?

 

[bs6749]

I see nothing wrong with adding ottos and shrimp as they will pick stuff off of the bottom or off of the plastic plants and the pot and driftwood that you put in there.

In my opinion you are overstocking the 12 gallon tank by quite a bit. If you apply the inch per gallon rule you are probably at 14 inches for your 11 gallon tank (after adding substrate, clay pot, driftwood, plastic plants, etc.) Not only that but taller tanks are less well suited for the inch per gallon rule than long tanks. Surface area is the key factor. I would think about your stocking list. I don't see that may fish working in a tank that small without them being crowded.

 

[NeonJulie]

Some of the Surface Area formulas are where I am deriving the research for the tank.

21x11.5 / 13 = 18.5" of fish... I've heard very little positive remarks about the Inch per Gallon rule... that it's mainly for smaller fish. And I've heard people even question it in that case, feeling that for instance small fish like Neon Tetras would be happier relatively, the more they are.

This is very confusing. Also, I could remove those items to allow for more water/swimming room, but wouldn't that make them less comfortable and secure?


Snails... I've heard Malaysian Snails work well, but I'm reluctant because years ago we had a snail outbreak that was difficult to get rid of, I'm unsure if I know how to keep a good snail population in check, and how to make sure I have the right species...

 

[JDogg]

Some of the Surface Area formulas are where I am deriving the research for the tank.

21x11.5 / 13 = 18.5" of fish... I've heard very little positive remarks about the Inch per Gallon rule... that it's mainly for smaller fish. And I've heard people even question it in that case, feeling that for instance small fish like Neon Tetras would be happier relatively, the more they are.

This is very confusing. Also, I could remove those items to allow for more water/swimming room, but wouldn't that make them less comfortable and secure?


Snails... I've heard Malaysian Snails work well, but I'm reluctant because years ago we had a snail outbreak that was difficult to get rid of, I'm unsure if I know how to keep a good snail population in check, and how to make sure I have the right species...

something like apple snail should keep your algae in check, are fun to watch and should not breed fast if at all in your tank... i have never had them breed for me...:?

 

[JustOneMore20]

I think your stocking sounds fine. I'd even bump it up to 8 neons...they'd be happier that way. Stick to a honey gourami, as they are more peaceful (supposedly ) than dwarves. The neons will stay towards the middle-bottom and the gourami will stay towards the top-middle, so that will be fine.

If you get otos, get 3-4. You will most likely lose one, eventually. They aren't very hardy IMO, especially in a non-planted tank, unless you have tons of soft brown or soft green algae for them to feast on. Mine will eat wafers, but not veggies. I have had some that wouldn't touch algae wafers though and eventually died after cleaning the tank of algae. Its hit or miss with them...sometimes they die for no reason...thats why I recommend getting a group of them to start with. Make sure you add them last to the tank, after it is cycled.

A fishless cycle is great...I was just going to recommend that, but I see you are ahead of me. None of the fish on your stocking list are extremely hardy (like danios or what not), so I'm glad the tank will be cycled. I'd add the neons first, then the gourami, then the otos. I would skip the shrimp, as the otos will take care of algae. If you really want shrimp though, I'd just get 3-4 and add them after the otos.

 

[NeonJulie]

Thank you for your input. What if I'm ordering all the fish (minus the two guppies) at once from an overnight shipper... Will the order still be an issue?

I added Otos in there because it appeared I would need to, to handle the algae. If they aren't necessary, I'm not partial to them by any means. For exactly those reasons, they seem prone to problems, especially regarding diet.

I've been attached to the idea of having shrimp though... would a snail/shrimp combo work? Would this reduce my bio-load/room? Is there any thing in the tank at this point that would consider snails/shrimp a snack? Will the shrimp eat veggies?

Is this snail an ok choice? It appears to have limited breeding. Is buying 2 preferable?
http://liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=1077

Also, is this Gourami the correct one, as far as aggression goes?
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=992

Very grateful,
Julie



A.M. Test Results - Day 7
Ammonia = .1 (bumped back up to 4.0)
NitrItes = 2.0
NitrAtes = 6.0
pH = 7.4 and holding

 

[JustOneMore20]

would a snail/shrimp combo work

That would work.

Is there any thing in the tank at this point that would consider snails/shrimp a snack?

The gourami might...its hard to say though. Some will try to eat shrimp, some won't. I think if you get the Amano shrimp, they are a bit bigger than say Ghost or Cherry shrimp, so they may be ok. I would put alot of plants in the tank (real or fake) so that the shrimp would have some cover. The gourami will stay mostly at the top, so maybe with cover, the shrimp would be ok. The neons shouldn't bother the shrimp...and I don't think either the neons or the gourami would mess with a snail.

It looks like your cycle is progressing nicely! Won't be long before you can add fish.

 

[NeonJulie]

I'm also looking for ideas to do regular drip-slow siphoned water changes - I know Neons are susceptible to shock. I've heard of people doing this, but I can't seem to get more info out. It seems like it should be possible, being that I only need to change 4-5 gallons.

Here are some of my ideas so far... (untested though)

1. Get a 5 gallon bucket from Petco (with lid).
2. Get an airline tube with an airline control valve.
3. Get a tall/wide step ladder stool of higher height than the tank. Place bucket on top.
4. Either poke a small hole in the bucket towards the bottom, leave the airline in it permanently. (I suppose I'll have to address sealing at some point, silicone maybe?) Or cut the hole in the lid of the tank, and attempt to start a siphon using small airline tube.
5. Get a short, brand new hose/python for aquarium use only. Cut a hole in the top of the lid and insert. Connect to bath tub, fill bucket. Treat water with Prime.
6. Gravel vac/siphon 4-5 gallons.
7. Turn valve on Airline Control Valve for a small flow, etc.
8. Leave for x amount of time. (Half hour to an hour maybe?)

Sounds involved... the only thing that irritates me is having to get the bucket higher than the tank in order for the siphon to work. Unless water pressure from the bucket is enough to force water up the airline tube. I'll have to give it a try!

 

[JustOneMore20]

I would just get a Python. They are siphons that you hook to the the faucet/sink and you can change the flow when you need to take water out or in. You can just add the dechlorinator as you are adding the new water and it works great and you don't have to deal with buckets. You can slow the suction down, which is good for smaller tanks, so that you can get all the stuff off the bottom and not have to take out too much water. I'd do 40-50% water changes weekly.

I have neons in one of my tanks and I do water changes like this weekly....without problems.

This will especially be nice if you get another aquarium...doing bucket changes on multiple tanks can get old!

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=3910&N=2004+113164

Very much worth the money.

 

[NeonJulie]

I'd have bought one already if it came in 5-10'. Still, the flow might be the best thing. What would I do with 25' of hose, when the tub is 2.5 feet away!

EDIT: Who knows, but hubby's told me "no more tanks. One tank." I guess... we'll see...

 

[JustOneMore20]

Well I guess it would just lie on the floor. My Python has 50' of hose and one of my tanks is only about 10' away, so I just kind of spread it out on the floor....move it to the side so I don't trip over it.

The bucket method will work...especially if the tank isn't far from the tub...but it is just so much more trouble than the Python.

 

[eah]

I would just buy a regular gravel vac instead of a syphon since it's such a small quantity of water and you're already right by the water supply.

As for the stocking, if it were me, I would skip the guppies and start with gourami and the 8 or so neons. I've found that ottos fare much better in a more established tank, so it might be nice to wait for a while and really see how much of an algae problem you're going to have before adding them to the tank.

 

[bs6749]

Not to discourage you from buying from www.liveaquaria.com , but I just wanted to point out that shipping is probably around $30 unless you plan on spending $225 or whatever to get the free shipping. Just wanted to make sure that you know this so you aren't hit with any unexpected costs.

You could also check out www.aquabid.com and see if they have anything that you like as far as fish, and they may have a better selection on types of shrimp or snails that you might like better. They may have more to offer at least. I have heard of lots of people having great service from www.liveaquaria.com if you choose to go that route. One nice thing about aquabid is that you see pictures, more often than not, of EXACTLY what you are buying. You can also ask the sellers questions and they may be of more help than someone that has no idea of what you want to buy.

For your buket idea, try looking at Walmart for a drinking water container that has a spicket/spout on the bottom. This should help to prevent spills and avoid drilling into the bucket. I often find that a 5 gallon bucket is nice to have on hand when I am rearranging my plants and is a MUST HAVE when siphoning my tank. I change 10 gallons/week and a half out of my 55 gallon and it is no hassle for me at least.

 

[lyquidphyre]

I personally think the guppies are a little "out of place" with those fish. If you get two males (the longer finned ones) they could possibly terrorize one another (causing stress), if you get a male and a female the male will chase the female to no end (again, more stress).

So, I would scratch the guppies an add a few more neons in their place.

I think you could be pushing the stocking limit on your tank, but if you do weekly/bi weekly water changes and keep an eye on your parameters you should be fine!

Also, I do want to mention that since this tank is in the bathroom, you are going to have to be extra careful with ventilation and cleaning agents (like Tile-X or comet). If your bathroom is small and you have strong cleaning products, their fumes might have an ill effect on your fish. So definatly watch out for that!

 

[JustOneMore20]

I agree about the guppies...I'd skip them. I didn't see them listed before, or I would have mentioned it before (sorry, i didn't exactly read the whole first post....). I also didn't see that the tank was in the bathroom...since it is that close, I'd just use a pitcher to do water changes. It might take a few times to fill in the water, but it shouldn't be that bad since you are right next to the sink and tub. For siphoning, you could use a small regular siphon to get stuff off the bottom. I really wouldn't worry about the drip way of adding water. Neons can be a bit sensitive, but its mostly to ammonia and nitrite, which you shouldn't have a problem with in a cycled tank. You could do water changes twice a week, maybe 15-20% each time if you were worried about shock (that way you wouldn't be changing out a big volume of water at once). I have neons and I do 50% weekly changes though...and haven't had a problem with them.

 

[NeonJulie]

Thank you for the reminders regarding fumes - I won't be using any unnatural (vinegar etc) products once the fish are in. There's signs on the door indicating no aerosol items, hair spray, nail polish, air freshners, etc. Since the bathroom's empty (except hand soap and aquarium things) I don't anticipate any issues. It is an important reminder though.

Regarding the guppies... no they aren't my first choice, but I feel like I should begin with them. I don't have 100% confidence in my tank set up - when I first bought everything and attempted cycling a month ago, I had an inappropriately labeled source of ammonia. (It was a nightmare.) A lot of time and money and salt scrubbing later, here I am. I feel it's important to make sure that I know the tank is habitable and no longer contaminated, and the only way I know to do that for sure is 2 guppies. (I hate to do it, but 2 fish would be a lot better than 10.) (A knowledgeable friend breeds them and wants to give me a few. I don't trust LFS.)


I'm experiencing major cycle confusion at the moment! My ammonia alert showed Yellow (safe) when I got home. It went from toxic to safe in less than 9 hours. I thought that was pretty interesting, so I ran my tests. The ammonia showed probably .05. (Hard to tell, it was close to the Zero yellow color.)

So then I ran the NitrIte test. Immediately it turned bright purple, and I waited and then it got lighter, then it turned grey, then it turned CLEAR. Clear? So then I waited around 10 minutes it developed into a green seafoam color. There's nothing like that on my indicator. I figured I did something wrong, so I did the test again. I got the same result. It looks more like the pH colors but it isn't. I thought maybe somehow I contaminated the results, so after rinsing everything and starting over, I rinsed the vials in the tank water, in case chlorine or something was effecting my readings.

As you know, the exact same thing occured. At 10 seconds, it's bright purple, at 3 minutes it's grey, at 5 it's clear. At 10, it's seafoam. Does this mean it's almost at the 0 ppm (the blue?) Or does it mean it's off the chart? What does it mean?!?!

Anyway, I dosed the ammonia back up.

My tank is really cloudy at this point. When it became cloudy on Friday, I did a partial water change. That seemed to help. Now it is as bad and worse as it's ever been. Could whatever is cloudy, be changing the NitrIte test results?

And NitrAtes are still low, 5-6. A few days ago, they reached 10, and then next day they dropped to 2. (I'm suspicious of that algae!)

I'm going crazy. (So is my hubby.) What is going on with all this...

 

[fish 'n' fries]

Are you using a liquid test kit? Then the color that is there at the time you're supposed to read it (mine's at 5 minutes) is the accurate one. They will continue to change if you let it sit longer, but that's not where it's calibrated to test.

If your cloudy water is white it's likely a bacterial bloom--which is a good thing--may be your bacteria to convert nitrIte to nitrAte.