Thinking of using sand...20 gallon setup...HELP!

[madaboutshrimp]

I'm currently setting up a 20 gallon tank, full kit from Marineland purchased at Petsmart. I bought it for my daughter who's been having a heck of a time with her little cheap-o 10gal. The tank wasn't cycled or anything before a whole mess of fish were dropped in and, of course, most of the fish just couldn't handle it. So, I decided to try and salvage the one fish left, was recommended Stress-Zyme or something along those lines to help promote quick bacteria growth. It's actually seemed to help quite a bit but I've also been doing daily PWCs and checking the levels nonstop(I'm paranoid). The ammonia levels are slowly lowering but I don't know about nitrites or nitrates since the test kit I have is VERY limited. Anyhoo, I decided to purchase a 20 gallon so I can start from scratch and set the tank up properly. I plan to use the 10 gal. as a hospital tank.

Anyway, once I started setting this thing up I started doing massive amounts of research and in doing so I have now become intrigued with sand instead of gravel. Would that be something that's possible given the limited size of the tank? And if so, do I need a special filter or anything specific that didn't come in my kit? Also what are the pros...and cons of sand? And when I do start cycling the tank do I need to have it completely set up with gravel/sand, plants, etc during the process or are those things I add after? I guess that kind of seems like a stupid question but it seems like adding such high amounts of ammonia would somehow affect the stuff in the tank...maybe I'm over thinking it. Anyway, I appreciate the help...VERY much!

 

[jetajockey]

i suggest using tetra safestart, its available at petsmart and has a decent track record, just be sure to follow the directions.

You can put sand and plants in whenever you want.

The pro of sand is that the gunk tends to sit on top, so it doesnt get all stuck in the gravel. The con is that the gunk sits on top and can get ugly if you don't clean it out regularly.

Plants are fine in low concentrations of ammonia, it even benefits them.

 

[madaboutshrimp]

Plants are fine in low concentrations of ammonia, it even benefits them.

I'm deathly scared to put live plants in my tank at this point. From what I've read on these forums and online I don't know if that's an avenue I'm ready to explore yet. I was thinking more of the fake type for now...at least until I feel comfortable with the stability of the tank. At some point I would like live plants.

I was going to go the ammonia route for cycling but I don't have an established tank available to pull seed bacteria from so I'm sort of stuck on how to proceed. Is that what the Tetra safestart is for?

 

[mommytron]

i'm going to recommend PFS (pool filter sand). it's pretty much all of the pros of gravel AND sand without most of the cons. PFS can be found at pool stores, hardware stores, or places like Meijers (i know others on the site have found it there, i've never been to one myself).

pros:
it's super cheap (~$6 for 50lbs which will be more than enough for a 20 gallon)
it can be vacuumed like gravel (sucked into your siphon and spit back out)
most of the detritus will sit on top (but should still be vacuumed, which is doable)
is safe for fish like corydoras that have sensitive barbels...and it's able to be burrowed in

cons:
made mostly of silica which promotes diatom growth. this has been the only con i have found so far, which is minute compared to it's benefits.


it's best to add your substrate and decorations prior to cycling your tank. most of your beneficial bacteria will grow in the filter, but there will also be a good amount in your substrate and some on the surfaces of decorations. if it's not in there while you cycle, there is that much less space for bacteria to grow. the ammonia will not harm anything that's in there. in order to dose your tank to 4ppm (which is ideal for a fishless cycle) you will need roughly 1-2 teaspoons of ammonia. and that may even be too much. it's a relatively trivial amount (well, to us. not to fish )

 

[jetajockey]

When you do decide to go with live plants, pick some that are low demand and hardy , like java ferns or anubias. They are a good stepping stone, and they actually help water quality by soaking up toxins.

Tetra safestart is basically like stresszyme in that it adds nitrifying bacteria to the tank. Unlike stresszyme, though, tetra safestart has a good track record, I've tested it personally on multiple occasions and it has been fairly reliable. It's made for fish-in cycling.

 

[siva]

I would recommend you just do a fishless cycle with ammonia. This is going to be far safer and more reliable than adding fish and using a product like safestart. Many consider these products to be useless.

 

[madaboutshrimp]

i'm going to recommend PFS (pool filter sand). it's pretty much all of the pros of gravel AND sand without most of the cons. PFS can be found at pool stores, hardware stores, or places like Meijers (i know others on the site have found it there, i've never been to one myself).

pros:
it's super cheap (~$6 for 50lbs which will be more than enough for a 20 gallon)
it can be vacuumed like gravel (sucked into your siphon and spit back out)
most of the detritus will sit on top (but should still be vacuumed, which is doable)
is safe for fish like corydoras that have sensitive barbels...and it's able to be burrowed in

cons:
made mostly of silica which promotes diatom growth. this has been the only con i have found so far, which is minute compared to it's benefits.


it's best to add your substrate and decorations prior to cycling your tank. most of your beneficial bacteria will grow in the filter, but there will also be a good amount in your substrate and some on the surfaces of decorations. if it's not in there while you cycle, there is that much less space for bacteria to grow. the ammonia will not harm anything that's in there. in order to dose your tank to 4ppm (which is ideal for a fishless cycle) you will need roughly 1-2 teaspoons of ammonia. and that may even be too much. it's a relatively trivial amount (well, to us. not to fish )

Hmm I don't know what diatom is but I'll definitely do some research. I've heard that you have to add ammonia every day until the nitrates start showing spikes...or was it nitrites? Argh I need to go re-read the article.

Do I need a special filter for the tank if I go with sand? I've read that you need something that pumps something like 3 times the amount of water for your tank size...something along those lines. Since I purchased a kit I doubt the filter I have will work...if that is in fact the case.

Gosh the list of things I need to do before adding water to my tank just gets longer and longer!

 

[mommytron]

diatoms are just brown algae that shows up in "new" tanks (generally under 6 months)

don't get overwhelmed. just keep reading up on the nitrogen cycle until you really understand it. if it helps, do a google search of "nitrogen cycle" and see what you find. sometimes it helps to research things on your own terms. also, read the articles and threads on the site about fishless cycling (http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html -- http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/fishless-cycling-for-dummies-103339.html ) <- the second one is what i followed, it's a good article.

you want a filter that filters 10x your tank size per hour (whether you have sand or not). i recommend to get an AC50 (Aquaclear 200 (50)) it's a great filter and gives you freedom to choose your own filter media (has a nice compartment instead of a slot for cartridges). it's what i'm running on my 20g right now.

if you were to get a finer sand than PFS (like play sand or Tahitian Moon sand) you would want to put a sponge, or something similar, to stop the tiny sand particles from being pulled into the intake tube to ruin your impeller. however, if you choose PFS, you won't have this problem.

 

[madaboutshrimp]

diatoms are just brown algae that shows up in "new" tanks (generally under 6 months)

don't get overwhelmed. just keep reading up on the nitrogen cycle until you really understand it. if it helps, do a google search of "nitrogen cycle" and see what you find. sometimes it helps to research things on your own terms. also, read the articles and threads on the site about fishless cycling (http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html -- http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/fishless-cycling-for-dummies-103339.html ) <- the second one is what i followed, it's a good article.

you want a filter that filters 10x your tank size per hour (whether you have sand or not). i recommend to get an AC50 (Aquaclear 200 (50)) it's a great filter and gives you freedom to choose your own filter media (has a nice compartment instead of a slot for cartridges). it's what i'm running on my 20g right now.

if you were to get a finer sand than PFS (like play sand or Tahitian Moon sand) you would want to put a sponge, or something similar, to stop the tiny sand particles from being pulled into the intake tube to ruin your impeller. however, if you choose PFS, you won't have this problem.

cool thanks. I'll definitely check out that link tomorrow!

Let's see...the filter I have is a Marineland Bio-Wheel Power Filter Penguin 150, 3 stage filtration that filters 150 gallons per hour. I'm absolutely abominable at math so I'll probably sleep on it and either attempt to do the math in the morning OR sleep on it and nag my husband to do the math for me in the morning lol. I'll probably aim for the latter! Thanks for all your help. I'm going to research it a bit further because I'd really like to have sand if I can get away with it.

edit* duh, 10x...or 200. Yeesh. I think I need sleep.

 

[mommytron]

lol. you should have a filter that filters 200gallons (20gallons x 10) an hour. your filter is almost there (filtering about 7.5x your tank capacity an hour). the AC50 would be great for your tank. if you wish to keep your filter, just try to understock your tank.

 

[mommytron]

you CAN get away with sand!! i have in all my tanks it's so much better than gravel. PFS is cheaper as well.

 

[jetajockey]

If you prefer colored sand there are several options. I like using 3m colorquartz. It's been discontinued for some time, but there are still industrial/pool supply places that stock it. It's about .50/lb and since it's ceramic coated I've yet to see it bloom diatoms because of the silicates.

 

[madaboutshrimp]

lol. you should have a filter that filters 200gallons (20gallons x 10) an hour. your filter is almost there (filtering about 7.5x your tank capacity an hour). the AC50 would be great for your tank. if you wish to keep your filter, just try to understock your tank.

I actually thought I would probably stock with about 15 small fish like the neon danios or tetras and some shrimp. I've been trying not to think about fish yet...just trying to tackle one thing at a time and at present it's getting my tank ready to be cycled.

Now that I'm thinking about it 15 maybe seems too many?

edit: Is this the filter you're talking about? http://www.amazon.com/Hagen-AquaClear-Power-Filter-200/dp/B000260FUM

 

[madaboutshrimp]

I figured I'd get white/tan sand. I guess I need to start researching my options!