Water Help...

[n5xmt]

Ok, Have a 20 Gal freshwater tank... started with AmQuel in water and let the tank sit and run for 2 weeks before I ever bought fish... let things stabilize etc... got 5 tiger barbs... (very small) no prob... a week later got 2 Australian rainbows... no probs...
a week later, 2 blue gourami's... no probs... then 2 Blood fin tetra's... no probs... 4 small plecostamus's... no probs... a week later, 2 Senegal Bichirs... all is well... a month laer, PH is below 6!!!! check the tap, it's cool, do a 25% water change, check nitrite, nitrate and ammonia before the H2O change, all look great except PH...
Add PH up... an hour later, PH is about 6.5... looks good... 24 hours later check and PH is below 6 again... WTF??? another dose of PH up... PH goes to 6.5... 24 hours later, back to below 6... ad PH up and ph stabilizer... again, goes to 6.5 and 24 hours later it's back to below 6... another 25% water change, check PH it's 6.2, add a dose of PH up and it goes to 6.7... 24 hours later, below 6 again!!! GRRRRRR and the water is cloudy and will not clear up...
any suggestions??? is this too many fish for this tank?
all fish are fairly small... gourami's are 2 1/2" each, rainbows are 3", bloodfins are 2", barbs are less than 2"... Pleco's are now 4" each, Bichirs are 4"...

 

[jsoong]

Check your KH .... pH will not be stable unless you have adaquate buffers.

Also, what is your tap pH?

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Wish I could get my PH below 7, (or 7.4+) but can't unless I don't change the water for a month..

Old water will cause a drop in PH, but you've now done 2 25% water changes, do you have driftwood in the tank? (can reduce the PH, but usually not to 6 even..)

Let a glass of water from the tap sit overnight, and check the ph in the morning..

 

[fishybidnes]

Well, I have been told that using buffers like the ph up and down, while in the short term will change the ph and put it where you want, it will not solve the problem. There are a number of ways of changing your ph, and seeing as how I am new too, I will not venture a response to that.
On the ? of whether or not you have to many fish, I would have to say yes. I am sure the amount of fish you have is wreaking havoc on your water quality. Even though your fish are not full grown, you have at least 50 inches of fish in your tank. The standard I have seen everywhere on the internet and in books is 1 inch of fish per 1 gallon of tank water. By the time your fish get full size, you could very well double that amount. You should definitely think about getting another tank or returning some of those fish, especially the plecos.

• 5 tigers- 10"
  2 rainbow- 6"
  2 bloodfins- 4"
  4 plecos- 16"
  2 bichirs 8"
  2 Gouramis- 5"
  8O 49"

_

 

[SerLunchbox]

Well, I have been told that using buffers like the ph up and down, while in the short term will change the ph and put it where you want, it will not solve the problem.

I agree ... you need KH and GH to be higher then 4 on their respective scales to even cause stability of a pH.

for a 20 gal aquairium that seems to be a lot of fish given how big most of them get. However, i am severly overstocked in my tank as well. The bonus i have is that i have the filteration for it all and my tank is really mature! When your fish start to get bigger, you may want to start considering a new tank. So long as your fish are healthy and look healthy i say go for it. just watch them really carefully.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I would have to agree on the Pleco's. They can grow very very big. I saw two a couple months ago that were over a foot long. Being in that small of a tank, they will compete for food and cause stress. It's hard for me to even keep 1 pleco in my 10 gal. The fish store that you purchased them from needs a lesson in fish keeping.

The 1 inch per gal "rule" is bs. I brought up the subject about a week ago and was bombarded with people telling me that it is an outdated rule with today's technology. I would have to agree. Our 55 gal is under 55 inches right now, but once the fish are full grown, we will have exceeded the "rule". The more fish you have in a tank, the more water changes that need to be done. Just be prepared for often water changes. Watch your fish closely for abnormal behavior or competitiveness for food.

The only thing that concerns me is the swimming room for the fish and the Pleco's. You definitely need to take back 3 of the Pleco's. They are best suited alone, not in groups. I can't comment on the other fish that you have because the only one that I have experience with is the Blue Gourami.

To raise your pH there are certain rocks that can be added to your tank to naturally increase the pH slowly. I'm not sure what rock exactly it would be to raise it to 7.0. We are using crushed coral to raise ours to 7.8, but that's way too high for your tank. Hopefully someone else can chime in.

 

[n5xmt]

no driftwood, and I also have used "Easy Balance" which the petsmart people said was very good at stabilizing PH...
my tap water sits at 7.0... the 2 Betta's I have, in their 2 gal hex tanks both sit right at 7.0 and they have been here for a year with 25% changes every 3 months...
here's some pics so you can see what I have...
the one plant in the middle is real... a Ludwigia... the other is still plastic...

 

[n5xmt]

Well, went to a REAL place than knew fish and water... Ocean Floor here in Greenville... They did a much fuller water test than I can do here...
PH below 6
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrate 10ppm
Nitrite .5ppm
Phosphate 5.0
KH 0
He said it appears from smell, the pics and my description that the tank is in the middle of a cycle... he said to let it run and do nothing for now, except add water if it needs it... no more chemicals. Once the cycle is done, then we will look at water again and get buffers/ph etc straight... He also agreed that this many fish he wouldn't have in less than a 55 gallon tank, so we are looking for a new tank used as well... figure I can get it set up and run for 2-3 weeks then move the fish over 1 or 2 a week until they are all over... though I may keep a couple in the 20 gal as well and seperate them better by those who play best together LOL

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

You may consider keeping up with water changes, it may cycle soon, but you don't want ammonia to become toxic levels.

 

[jsoong]

Looks like you find yousrself a good lfs. From your tap's pH at 7.0, I would predict that you have very low KH & buffering is needed. Adding chemicals is really not the way to go.

Most people here would suggest adding crushed coral/oyster shell/limestone as the source of the buffer. For one thing, the cc acts as a reservour, constantly renewing the buffer as it is used up .... whereas the chemicals will give temporary result, but the pH will crash as soon as it is gone.

BTW - you had little problem with the betta tank, because of the low bioload. All fish produce acids (when ammonia - NH3 becomes NO3, the extra H's are the source of most of the acids), so the more fish you have, the faster the water deteriorate as the buffer is used up.

I would echo the need to do water changes, esp. in the middle of a cycle. You don't want the NH3 to get too high, and the water change will bring in some much needed buffering capacity. <Even though the KH would be low in the tap, it would'nt be zero!>

 

[n5xmt]

How often/how much would you recomend I do changes? I did a 25% 2 days ago

 

[Menagerie]

[center:818ea4612e] Welcome to AA, n5xmt!! [/center:818ea4612e]

PH below 6
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrate 10ppm
Nitrite .5ppm
Phosphate 5.0
KH 0

8O

You will loose fish if you follow the advice of the store. You need to be doing 25-30% PWC everyday. Do you know anyone with an established tank? If you could get a squeezing of their filter, you could add it to your filter and basically have an instant cycle.

I will also second the advice not to use pH up or any other chemicals. The only chemical you need is dechlor. You should also buy your own test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.
If your pH tests at 7 after letting it sit overnight, then the problem has more to do with the tank not being cycled. Have you done the pH test after the tap water sits overnight?

 

[Menagerie]

5 tigers, 2 rainbows, 2 bloodfins, 4 plecos, 2 bichirs, 2 Gouramis

That's a lot of fish for that little tank. Do you know the exact variety of the plecos you have? Aside from being a very crowded tank in the long run, this bioload is causing the harsh water parameters. I will admit that I have overstocked my 50 gal, but it's easier to "save" an overstocked tank when it is larger. Water parameters are more forgiving in a larger tank. I don't keep birchers, but when they are fully grown, I believe they will be looking at some of your other fish as "lunch."

 

[n5xmt]

[center:bb8971664b] Welcome to AA, n5xmt!! [/center:bb8971664b]

PH below 6
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrate 10ppm
Nitrite .5ppm
Phosphate 5.0
KH 0

8O

You will loose fish if you follow the advice of the store. You need to be doing 25-30% PWC everyday. Do you know anyone with an established tank? If you could get a squeezing of their filter, you could add it to your filter and basically have an instant cycle.

I will also second the advice not to use pH up or any other chemicals. The only chemical you need is dechlor. You should also buy your own test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.
If your pH tests at 7 after letting it sit overnight, then the problem has more to do with the tank not being cycled. Have you done the pH test after the tap water sits overnight?

Yep, Tap water is still 7 after sitting for a few days... I tested a sample in my "top off" jug for the Betta's... an old plastic milk jug I put tap water in and let sit for a week before I use it to add to them if they get low...
Have the full test kit myself for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite and PH.. my readings mirror those of Ocean Floor... (other than phosphate as this test kit doesn't include that one)
For dechlor I am using the Sera brand AquaTan... I was using AmQuel and StressZyme together, but only the AquaTan now.

 

[n5xmt]

5 tigers, 2 rainbows, 2 bloodfins, 4 plecos, 2 bichirs, 2 Gouramis

That's a lot of fish for that little tank. Do you know the exact variety of the plecos you have? Aside from being a very crowded tank in the long run, this bioload is causing the harsh water parameters. I will admit that I have overstocked my 50 gal, but it's easier to "save" an overstocked tank when it is larger. Water parameters are more forgiving in a larger tank. I don't keep birchers, but when they are fully grown, I believe they will be looking at some of your other fish as "lunch."

Don't know the variety, but all 4 are these:

 

[PK Tester]

Hey,

You really need to watch that ammonia. Ammonia at that level can easily kill fish. Ammonia at .5 over a period of time can kill fish. I'd be doing PWC daily until that level dropped.

Good luck!