Why does my pH keep going up?

[jetajockey]

distilled water has the buffers removed so it's not going to help the problem.

This is a good read
Properly Maintaining the pH in a Freshwater Aquarium - Rate My Fish Tank

 

[Ellenquacker72]

Do you think something in my tank is raising the ph? Should I try rinsing out the filter since there aren't any bacteria? Take out the gravel?

 

[Ellenquacker72]

Up to 7,6...

 

[jetajockey]

coral, shells, anything else with calcium in it can raise the Ph. I'm not sure what the big concern is with the ph though I don't think it's stopping anything.

That said, I don't know much about the water softening process so it may be worth looking into as well.

 

[Ellenquacker72]

My main concern is that Eco said that bacteria probably doesn't grow at a pH over 8.5, or extremely slowly if it does. I don't really want to spend like 3 months on a fishless cycle... If it cycles at all that is.
I hear you know about fish in cycles. Anything I should know if I should decide to go that route?
(I'll use unsoftened water)

 

[eco23]

My main concern is that Eco said that bacteria probably doesn't grow at a pH over 8.5, or extremely slowly if it does. I don't really want to spend like 3 months on a fishless cycle... If it cycles at all that is.
I hear you know about fish in cycles. Anything I should know if I should decide to go that route?

If you go that route (not my preferred way, but sometimes understandable) I would encourage you to heavily plant your tank with undemanding fast growing plants like Anacharis and Water Sprite. They will help absorb ammonia and keep things a bit less toxic for your fish. It's called "silent cycling". The more plants the better...

Jetajockey has a ton of knowledge with planted tanks...I'm sure he has some great suggestions on types of plants to use.

 

[Ellenquacker72]

But as I said, I don't think my plants are doing very well, I have a light that is supposed to support plants ( although I've heard otherwise lately... Why they would sell a plant bulb at 18000k is beyond me) and am adding a tiny bit of flourish every other day. But like I said, aren't doing exactly fantastic. The moneywort has leaves that are turning brown and falling off, amd the java fern looks exactly the same as it did when I bought it, and might even have brown spots that it didn't have before.
I really don't want to do a fish in cycle, but I am so frustrated with the fishless cycle and ph, I'd kinda like to see if the fish Can live in these conditions.
1-2 platies maybe?

 

[eco23]

But as I said, I don't think my plants are doing very well, I have a light that is supposed to support plants ( although I've heard otherwise lately... Why they would sell a plant bulb at 18000k is beyond me) and am adding a tiny bit of flourish every other day. But like I said, aren't doing exactly fantastic. The moneywort has leaves that are turning brown and falling off, amd the java fern looks exactly the same as it did when I bought it, and might even have brown spots that it didn't have before.
I really don't want to do a fish in cycle, but I am so frustrated with the fishless cycle and ph, I'd kinda like to see if the fish Can live in these conditions.
1-2 platies maybe?

I'm gonna let jetajockey or another member help you on this one. I mean absolutely no offense because I totally understand your frustration...but experimenting to "see if fish can live in these conditions" goes against what I believe in and is why I am such an advocate of fishless cycling on this site. Again, I understand your frustration though.

 

[Homedog98]

Just don't... Stick it out... It's worth it in the long run.

 

[Ellenquacker72]

I worded that wrong... Sorry. I was just thinking that what if, at the end of a fishless cycle, that the fish couldn't tolerate the conditions.... It would be terrible
Like I said I REALLY don't want to.

 

[eco23]

Most fish, if acclimated properly, can adjust to a wide range of pH levels. Unless you plan to keep sensitive fish like GBR, Discus, etc... there should be no problems with your fish thriving in your environment. If worse came to worse, there are tons of natural ways to adjust pH and buffer your water so it stays stable. I usually don't recommend messing with water chemistry...but in some situations it is necessary. That will be a bridge to cross when we come to it. In fact, it may be a bridge we're pretty close to now since it may help your cycle

 

[jetajockey]

My main concern is that Eco said that bacteria probably doesn't grow at a pH over 8.5, or extremely slowly if it does. I don't really want to spend like 3 months on a fishless cycle... If it cycles at all that is.
I hear you know about fish in cycles. Anything I should know if I should decide to go that route?
(I'll use unsoftened water)

I wouldn't worry too much about it getting too high to 'stall' a cycle. I know people that have liquid rock for water and still cycle fine, and those that purposely raise hardness for african setups, so the Ph thing would be the least concern I'd have at the moment.

Since you've already been going fishless, I'd probably just keep at it, no sense in going this far and then changing up unless you are absolutely sure that the fishless method just isn't doing it for you.

If you do decide to do a fish-in cycle, let me know, I will walk you through it. I'll *eventually* make a primer on the subject, but who knows when I'll finally get that all sorted out. Hopefully in the next day or two.

 

[Ellenquacker72]

I honestly think that there are next to no bacteria left if any, I've been fooling around with the tank so much lately. And now I have to ANOTHER full water change since I put in the dirty rain water, since it apparently didn't change anything. And I'm out of ammonia. And I haven't seen any around, which is discouraging as well. ALL I WANTED was a few fish but this whole process has been quite exciting and VERY educational.
Thank you all who have been coaching me!

 

[jetajockey]

The good news is that the bacteria are anchored into biofilm, so water changes and messing around with stuff probably isn't affecting them as much as you think.

The cycling process can be stressing if you let it, the key is to do what it takes to keep it fun and not a chore.

 

[Ellenquacker72]

The thing about the water changes killing bacteria is that I haven't been putting any ammonia in to supplement it shall we say... That's the main problem.

 

[eco23]

The thing about the water changes killing bacteria is that I haven't been putting any ammonia in to supplement it shall we say... That's the main problem.

I'm not sure we know exactly the time bacteria survives without die-off when lacking an ammonia source (I lean towards a one week timeline before it's substantial). My main concern with the bacteria is the fact that the tank was left empty and dried out. As long as your filter media and substrate stayed wet...you should still have some beneficial bacteria living in your tank. I'd try to pick up another bottle of pure ammo ASAP, and to keep this thing going . I do believe pH levels above 8.5 will substantially slow the colonization of the bacteria. I've seen it stated in numerous articles (including one jeta linked earlier). I'd say to set things back up with your natural tap water (unsoftened IMO), get the ammonia dosed back up...and if we don't see any significant movement within a week...we'll start looking at options like running peat in your filter to aid with your cycle.

 

[Ellenquacker72]

pH down to 7.4 from last night?
Since I put I. The rain water it went from: 6.6, to 7.0( that was a good test ) the next morning, 7.2 a few hours later, then to 7.6 at night, now... The next, morning it went down??
Where would I buy the peat though? The only peat-related product in the tetra pond safe peat extract or something. And I don't know if that counts...

 

[eco23]

Hi Ellen, since you've got two threads on a similar subject, I'll go ahead and respond on this one about the pH and buffers. Buffers are basically dissolved minerals that help to keep your pH stable. I've never thought too deeply about it, but I'd have to assume rain water wouldn't contain any since it is basically pure water (with the exception of what it absorbs in the atmosphere). Here's a good link on pH and buffering in the aquarium.
http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_adjusting_pH.php
As for the peat, I've never personally used it, but you can purchase it at the chain stores as well as most lfs's. I believe it's normally designed for canister filters, but they also sell mesh media bags it can be put in and placed in a HOB filter. Now the part I'm not very familiar with is the actual process of using peat. I know it lowers pH, but I have no clue if the media they sell also adds any type of buffers as well. Things like crushed coral and aragonite will raise pH, but also dissolve compounds into your water which increase hardness / alkalinity. I have no clue if peat contains any compounds that would help stabilize as well as lower the pH. I'd you decided to use peat, you should do a bit of research and see how most people suggest it is run in their filter. The article I linked covers part of it, but it never hurts to ask other AA members who actually use it

 

[Ellenquacker72]

Tank you soo much to those people who suggested aerating the water. I've been doing it every night (il stop the every night thing after the cycle is done) and in the morning, the ph is the same as the tank! Such a relief to know that it isn't something in my tank that makes it do that!! And I can use my unsoftened tap water instead or buying it or whatever. THANK GOODNESS! now I just have to worry about my nitrite levels...