why is everyone cycling with fish in!?!?

[reeferman420]

So I'm quite confused as to all the people cyclin with fish. Its quite cruel...nevermind the fact that it can take up to 3x longer to cycle. Patience is your best friend in this hobby. Use pure ammonia or raw shrimp. I've had tanks cycle fully in 2-3weeks with pure ammonia. They don't always cycle that fastbut it can happen. Do the fish and yourselfs a favor...wait to buy your fish. They will thank you for it in the long run

 

[monaro_gto]

Not everyone knows ahead of time anything to do with cycling and BB and pwc etc etc. I wished I would have know ahead of time.

 

[jetajockey]

One reason is because you can cycle fish-in easily with no harm to the fish if you know how to do it correctly. So fishless cycling in most cases (in FW) is unnecessary.

 

[reeferman420]

One reason is because you can cycle fish-in easily with no harm to the fish if you know how to do it correctly. So fishless cycling in most cases (in FW) is unnecessary.

I'm gonna have to disagree completely. The only way your not harming the fish is if ur keeping ur levels at 0. Besides for nitrate of course. But during cycle ur parameters change so much that ur gonna stress the fish out regardless of if u thinl ur harming them or not. Its best to fishless cycle. Plus why add 1-2 fish at a time hoping ur biological filter keeps up. In a fishless cycle you can build a stronger biofilter in less time. Add all ur fish at once.

I'm not saying your wrong. But I disagree with you 100%

 

[jetajockey]

I'm gonna have to disagree completely. The only way your not harming the fish is if ur keeping ur levels at 0. Besides for nitrate of course. But during cycle ur parameters change so much that ur gonna stress the fish out regardless of if u thinl ur harming them or not. Its best to fishless cycle. Plus why add 1-2 fish at a time hoping ur biological filter keeps up. In a fishless cycle you can build a stronger biofilter in less time. Add all ur fish at once.

I'm not saying your wrong. But I disagree with you 100%

Okay, so lets flesh this argument out a little, if you are willing. We are both logical people, right?

You are incorrect about the 'keeping your levels at 0 or you are harming the fish' statement. I'm not sure where you read this, I know that some forums circulate this information but it's just not correct. Ammonia toxicity is dependent on both pH and temperature. What that essentially means is, it's not always in a toxic state to animals, and whether it is or isn't depends on a few factors.

There are charts readily available that show ammonia toxicity in relation to pH and temperature. Ammonia ionization (happens naturally in lower ph and temps) is something that the fabled Prime type water conditioners rely on.


Okay moving along. If you understand the nitrogen cycle then you'll understand what is going on in your tank. So there's no wild fluctuations or changes in parameters that are not already understood beforehand.

You are only giving the positive side to fishless cycling, there's some negatives also. If you enjoy searching around town for the 'right' kind of ammonia to dose. (The irony is living things everywhere are giving off ammonia in some form or fashion). If you are fine with staring at an empty tank for 3-4 weeks or more, then by all means, but it's not for me. Especially when fish-in cycling can be done safely and easily if you know what you are doing. Again, you are welcome to disagree, but a factual counterargument would be the most productive.

Also, you don't have to add 1-2 fish at a time and 'hope' the biofilter catches up. Heavily plant the tank, add some seeded media, and stock the fish. If you are wary, stock lightly and see how things go for a while before you add more. If you get good at this, you end up starting systems that need no more work than the standard weekly water change routine.

"Building a stronger biofilter" argument does not work either, simply because biofilters are dynamic. The nitrifying bacteria colony grows and shrinks based on the amount of resources available. So, even if you do dose 5ppm ammonia to make a massive biofilter, it's just going to eventually die back and shrink down to whatever size works with the amount of nitrogenous waste being produced.

Honestly, when people try to make the 'fish in cycling is cruel!' argument, I want to respond with 'fishless cycling is cruel to people', since everyone in the vicinity of the tank has to stare at emptiness and scratch their heads for a month or more because the person in charge thinks they are being humane.

It's cool not to understand something, we are all ever learning, but it's not cool for someone to villainize a methodology because it's not well understood by them yet.

 

[Cloudhp8]

I'm gonna have to disagree completely. The only way your not harming the fish is if ur keeping ur levels at 0. Besides for nitrate of course. But during cycle ur parameters change so much that ur gonna stress the fish out regardless of if u thinl ur harming them or not. Its best to fishless cycle. Plus why add 1-2 fish at a time hoping ur biological filter keeps up. In a fishless cycle you can build a stronger biofilter in less time. Add all ur fish at once.

I'm not saying your wrong. But I disagree with you 100%

i'm gonna go ahead and say you are wrong and must be trolling.

adding all your fish at once can mess your parameters up quite badly you add 1 -2 or 3 to gradually build up the BB (specially NEW tanks)(older mature tanks you can probably get away with this) to get rid of all the AMMO TRITES and TRATES adding say 10 + fish will just overwhelm the system and you will get ammo spikes galore....maybe a true expert can get away with this but as for beginners slower is better so they have time to learn...you are feeding them wrong information ......and i do not think you can build up a biofilter stronger than that of having actual fish in there....for one you are not using real fish waste to create the biofilter...granted either way works but having the real thing is going to build up better, stronger bacteria that will be used to actual fish waste.

Both ways have their Pros and Cons...but not everyone that first starts out knows about BB and the nitrogen cycle water changes etc.....

 

[BillD]

This of course doesn't take into account that you have to set up a tank, right now, because you picked up a bag of fish at the monthly club meeting. Not every tank can be planned in advance; sometime you have a tank ready sometimes you don't. Regardless, there is no reason to lose any fish.

 

[reeferman420]

Apparently I'm the only person who is patient and plans things ahead of time lol. Wasn't trying to start a big fuss. I wanted to hear everyone else opinion

 

[Cloudhp8]

Apparently I'm the only person who is patient and plans things ahead of time lol. Wasn't trying to start a big fuss. I wanted to hear everyone else opinion

You never asked for an opinion

you kind of just threw your own opinion and own facts out there.....there is no real wrong way to start an aquarium...unless you are killing tons of fish off and keep doing it without research or asking around then that is a wrong way

 

[jetajockey]

Patience is irrelevant. My point was that fish less cycling is unnecessary. I don't put fish in right away because I can't stand waiting, I just have no valid reason to wait.

 

[reeferman420]

My apologies I didn't ask opinions correct. Only fact I put out there is it takes longer to cycle with fish...am I not correct? Cycling without fish there's no need for water changes as there's nothing in the tank that ammonia or nitrite going up and down is going to affect. If there's fish in, you must do water changes to keep levels liveable for the fish which will stall your cycle not letting the levels rise to there peaks for cycle.

 

[absolutangel04]

In general, a fishless cycle can take less time. But, that is most definitely NOT a given. Every cycle is different, and I have seen fishless cycles take many weeks. If you start totally from scratch (not seeded media or anything), I have personally never, ever seen a tank cycle in 2 weeks completely. I am not disgareeing with your results, you are the one testing, so I'm sure it worked that way for you. I am just saying that is not the norm from what I have seen. It is not uncommon for a fishless cycle to still take a good month and even longer sometimes.
I, personally, agree with the statements that fish-in cycles can be done easily without harming the fish. I have done both, and I see no need to do fishless cycles. Test some water from a river, the levels are NOT 0-0-0. Same goes for the pet store where you purchased the fish. The fish are totally fine with exposure to small levels of all stages of the nitrogen cycle. I know we are all in agreement here that the point is to not harm any fish while a cycle is happening. That can be done while fish-in cycling.
Also, like monaro said, many people who get started in the hobby don't know about the nitrogen cycle, and thus end up fish-in cycling by necessity. And of course, once you have 1 tank up and cycled, seeding media for additional tanks is easy-breezy so the cycle process gets a major kick start.
Though, I do whole-heartedly agree that if you are not willing to do pwc to keep your levels nice, then don't do a fish-in cycle. That said, I have not found the pwc load to be too difficult. But, to each their own.
Also, just for the record, when I bought my first tank, I had already learned all about the fish I wanted, saved money slowly, and PLANNED to do a fish-in cycle which was executed without a single casualty, and I still own some fish from all those years ago when I did it. So, please don't assume that you are the only person who plans things. Just because you did something differently does not make other people less responsible, caring, or knowledgeable. Not to be rude, but no, you are most definitely not the only person who plans ahead and is patient. You are not alone.

 

[Fishperson]

First off, I want to say that I fishless cycled my first tank, a 20 gallon, and I would not fish in cycle a tank. That is just my opinion. Speaking of opinions, these are just opinions, they may be strong opinions, but still opinions, so nobody is right or wrong. It's apples and oranges. Also, people have said that fish in cycling is for the impatient. I am not a patient person, but I did a fishless cycle, so that's not necessarily true. So, that being said, this is my opinion:

Obviously both ways have pros and cons. I think that fish in cycling is a long and arduous task in an unplanted tank. In a planted tank, it is perfectly reasonable and not cruel at all. My problem with that is that there are quite a few water changes needed to keep levels down, unless the tank is planted. Ammonia and nitrite are almost nonexistent in a heavily planted tank, and very few water changes are necessary, which is why I think it is reasonable to do a fish in cycle in a planted tank, because my problem with fish in cycling is the water changes, and the pain on the fish without frequent water changes, unless, of course, the tank is planted. Also, I don't think this thread was meant to talk about the "accidental" fish in cycles, because those are different. Some of the people who did that would have done a fishless cycle if they knew about it, but maybe some wouldn't. Now, on to fishless cycling. I like it because it is normally faster and requires less work. Plus, you can fully stock your tank afterwards. I personally don't mind waiting a month with an empty tank, because I think it is better in the long term. But those are just my opinions.

 

[reeferman420]

Thank you. This post wasn't directed at anyone though may seem that way. Just curious to people reason for fish in cycle. Keep em coming

 

[plantedtankman]

I've always cycled my tanks with hardy fish. I don't think people can be totally humane towards fish. I mean they are already out of their natural habitat. And we eat fish every day on this Earth, just not ornamental fish. People should just try to treat fish the best that they can... like I do. But their not like dogs or horses in my opinion. That's when the humane and inhumane subjects should be brought up. Just my opinion...

 

[BBradbury]

Hello reef...

Ahh. A debate. Fish-in tank cycling is very efficient. You have activity in the tank from the beginning and the procedure isn't harmful if you keep the right fish and do your job as the "keeper of the water". There are many, very hardy fish that easily tolerate the somewhat marginal water conditions. I prefer female "Feeder" Guppies, because they come with the little ones. But you can also use Platys, Zebra Danios, many of the species of Barbs are good, White Clouds, Rasboras and some more I can't recall.

You can use old filter media from an established tank to "jump start" the process. You have floating plants you can use, like Anacharis and Pennywort to help filter the water and make the fish feel comfortable. There are land plants you can emerse temporarily in the tank to use the forms of nitrogen that cause the fish a bit of a problem. If you plan ahead, you can easily cycle a tank with fish, in less than a month.

Fish in tank cycling gives you have the opportunity to practice water testing, water changing, and most of the other duties that will always need to be done.

I can't think of cycling a tank a better way. But, that's just me. The "old school" water keeper.

B

 

[Fishingforfish]

Hmm..

I used to be the type of person who thought fish-in cycling was cruel, and that I'd NEVER, EVER do it. Not even once.
But then my sister bought fish at an unexpected time, what was I to do? I did I fish-in cycle. Yes, at the time I thought I was horrible for doing that to the fish. But after research, it really turns out that you aren't doing harm if you're doing your job. I'm on my 2nd week of cycling, and they're fine, their colors are even more vibrant than when my sister got them. I do water changes every day or every other day at the most. I check ammonia-nitrites-nitrates daily. And you know what? I think, that with doing a fish in cycle, it really helped my patience with the tank--because the fish are already IN the tank. I don't think it's cruel at all, just do it right. Oh, and I have two in the tank, everything is still going fine. Am I the only one who things partial water changes are fun? O___o lol

 

[FishieKeeper429]

So I'm quite confused as to all the people cyclin with fish. Its quite cruel...nevermind the fact that it can take up to 3x longer to cycle. Patience is your best friend in this hobby. Use pure ammonia or raw shrimp. I've had tanks cycle fully in 2-3weeks with pure ammonia. They don't always cycle that fastbut it can happen. Do the fish and yourselfs a favor...wait to buy your fish. They will thank you for it in the long run

I didn't know about cycling and when I asked at my LFS, the lady said that it wouldn't cycle without fish and so I bought fish cause I'm really gullible.

 

[Coyne]

My apologies I didn't ask opinions correct. Only fact I put out there is it takes longer to cycle with fish...am I not correct? Cycling without fish there's no need for water changes as there's nothing in the tank that ammonia or nitrite going up and down is going to affect. If there's fish in, you must do water changes to keep levels liveable for the fish which will stall your cycle not letting the levels rise to there peaks for cycle.

I've done two Fish-In cycles that both took about 4 weeks. I am currently doing a Fishless cycle on my third tank and I am on week 6. So no, one isn't nessacarily faster than the other.

 

[reeferman420]

Hmm..

I used to be the type of person who thought fish-in cycling was cruel, and that I'd NEVER, EVER do it. Not even once.
But then my sister bought fish at an unexpected time, what was I to do? I did I fish-in cycle. Yes, at the time I thought I was horrible for doing that to the fish. But after research, it really turns out that you aren't doing harm if you're doing your job. I'm on my 2nd week of cycling, and they're fine, their colors are even more vibrant than when my sister got them. I do water changes every day or every other day at the most. I check ammonia-nitrites-nitrates daily. And you know what? I think, that with doing a fish in cycle, it really helped my patience with the tank--because the fish are already IN the tank. I don't think it's cruel at all, just do it right. Oh, and I have two in the tank, everything is still going fine. Am I the only one who things partial water changes are fun? O___o lol

Lol idk but I dread water changes. I've also got 7 tanks going so water changes can be a painnn.