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Old 01-07-2017, 03:49 PM   #11
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I am new to this so my facts as you say was limited... it was just my point of view... I don't know if it's safer or what not. and I meant when you take a fish from the wild to be put into a small tank at a store or to breed then moved again is cruel in a sense. though there are benefits of a tank.... of properly provided habitat it is safer.. no predators, regular promised food, clean envirment. but it could still be considered cruel in some opinions..... put a person in a hospital with a garden..... guaranteed good health, food, no threats, out doors, space. but it would still be cruel...... no freedom. fish will never 100% have a natural habitat in a tank.
amd I completly agree on the pets in general. and don't get me started in breeders and puppy farms.
bit i am new to this (like super new) so my knowledge is limited ... and I'm full aware of that... but never going to learn if I don't get involved in such posts
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Old 01-07-2017, 03:56 PM   #12
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Thanks Andy many points you make is the reason I brought this up.. Having kept fish years ago I was very familiar with swords. Thinking about stocking my tank when I finally get it going I have visited a couple of LFS to see the offerings.

I was shocked to see how terribly small these swords are today, with incorrect body shapes more descriptive of platys than swords. I bet there are few aquarists today that has actually seen how large and colourful an original sword looks. Red gills on Angels and other was another aspect I witnessed. All this the result of inbreeding, I suppose.

I was pretty disgusted about buying at any of these stores and went looking for an online supplier who had the choice of wild caught or domestic. Seemed to be a better option to get healthy subjects to start out with.
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Old 01-07-2017, 06:10 PM   #13
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Properly really is the key, and there is a difference between safe and natural.

Natural predation is part of what fish are built for. In fact, it's pretty important. For example, guppies have so many babies because lots of fish eat them.

In fact, right now, there's an issue with sea urchins in the wild not having enough natural predators. They eat the bases of kelp plants, and whole kelp forests become unmoored, which is damaging to many species of both plants and animals- both aquatic and terrestrial.

Habitat destruction and hunting are dangers they can't fight against. In that respect, I agree that they not only deserve but also need protection.

Part of that protection is from collection for the consumer market.

I live near and am a member of a zoo that is a pioneer in humane treatment of animals, breeding programs, and programs to reintroduce endangered critters. They have breeding pairs of giraffes, red pandas, African bush dogs, and other critically endangered animals. They also rescue animals who have been harmed in the wild and who were inappropriately kept as pets.

The footprint of the zoo is 125 acres, and they have refused animals due to a lack of size.

This is where we get back to hobby aquarists.

My cousins have a huge reef that requires staff upkeep. It is its own room. How many people have that? And how many people are keeping the bare minimum of schooling groups in a tank just big enough to contain them? As individuals, we flat out can't recreate a natural environment.

We can give them very good lives. We can take good care of them, keep them safe, and feed them well. We can give them plants and flow and daylight cycles, but it will never be nature.
I may not be the right person to debate safe vs natural with.
I fully understand the concepts of zoos, their use as a tool for creating protection interest to the wild animals they represent and the amazing steps they have taken over the years to try to recreate a more natural environment but you cannot convince me that they are in fact NATURAL when you have, say, an african lion living in a zoo in England. If it were natural, there would be lions roaming the english countryside. I see no difference between that and in the fish we keep. Just because you can't pet your fish ( and some can actually debate that fact ) does not mean you cannot create a natural setting for them. The use of the word "Cruel" is where I draw the line.
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Old 01-07-2017, 06:15 PM   #14
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I may not be the right person to debate safe vs natural with.
I fully understand the concepts of zoos, their use as a tool for creating protection interest to the wild animals they represent and the amazing steps they have taken over the years to try to recreate a more natural environment but you cannot convince me that they are in fact NATURAL when you have, say, an african lion living in a zoo in England. If it were natural, there would be lions roaming the english countryside. I see no difference between that and in the fish we keep. Just because you can't pet your fish ( and some can actually debate that fact ) does not mean you cannot create a natural setting for them. The use of the word "Cruel" is where I draw the line.
At no point did I say cruel.

And zoos can't be perfectly natural, it's true, but they have the potential to be very h good instruments of conservation and education.
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Old 01-07-2017, 06:39 PM   #15
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At no point did I say cruel.

And zoos can't be perfectly natural, it's true, but they have the potential to be very h good instruments of conservation and education.
Actually, my response was a joint comment on your post as well as the post below by loubeardy who did use the word "cruel". I'm of the firm belief that fish tanks can also be " good instruments of conservation and education" as well as enjoyment. I learned a heck of a lot more about the Earth and Earth sciences from keeping my fish than from my school years. But I've spent many years and a lot of money to know what I know which is why I also know the difference between new hobbyist opinions vs experienced hobbyist ones. The more you know, the more you ( The general YOU not the specific YOU ) understand.

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I agree with nirbhao.... wild caught out in a tank would be cruel. though I don't like or agree with fish companies... as their interests are not with the fish but twitch money it is nicer for the fish that have been bred and somewhat rescued from stores and out into a nice and loving tank at your home
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Old 01-07-2017, 06:44 PM   #16
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Thanks Andy many points you make is the reason I brought this up.. Having kept fish years ago I was very familiar with swords. Thinking about stocking my tank when I finally get it going I have visited a couple of LFS to see the offerings.

I was shocked to see how terribly small these swords are today, with incorrect body shapes more descriptive of platys than swords. I bet there are few aquarists today that has actually seen how large and colourful an original sword looks. Red gills on Angels and other was another aspect I witnessed. All this the result of inbreeding, I suppose.

I was pretty disgusted about buying at any of these stores and went looking for an online supplier who had the choice of wild caught or domestic. Seemed to be a better option to get healthy subjects to start out with.
Yes, sadly, your eyes were not deceiving you. Today's fish have not had the scrutiny and culling that the fish of years ago went through. Disfigured fish, unhealthy fish, fish with new diseases from too much inbreeding are all found in today's shops. The only way I know to change that is for people to not only not buy these fish but to tell the store's managers or owners why you aren't buying their fish. THAT says more than complaining.
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Old 01-07-2017, 07:20 PM   #17
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Andy, not really sure why you mentioned coloring as a 'fact', most fish that are domestic have been selective bred in some way shape or form. Some people want wild coloring and types, others don't.

You say collection isn't a problem but blue tangs aren't feeling the same way right now

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ocean-science/

I think wild vs domestic can be a sticky issue, most people are fine with domestic, some people prefer wild for certain species, or again, if they're doing conservation which is something everyone can applaud. Not everyone can keep these fish properly though, we see enough problems with people not being able to keep basic bettas in a proper setup.

I agree that we should be more informed as hobbyist and support those who are working towards the goals of bettering the hobby.

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Old 01-07-2017, 09:50 PM   #18
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Andy, not really sure why you mentioned coloring as a 'fact', most fish that are domestic have been selective bred in some way shape or form. Some people want wild coloring and types, others don't.

You say collection isn't a problem but blue tangs aren't feeling the same way right now

Do You Know Where Your Aquarium Fish Come From?

I think wild vs domestic can be a sticky issue, most people are fine with domestic, some people prefer wild for certain species, or again, if they're doing conservation which is something everyone can applaud. Not everyone can keep these fish properly though, we see enough problems with people not being able to keep basic bettas in a proper setup.

I agree that we should be more informed as hobbyist and support those who are working towards the goals of bettering the hobby.

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But that's just it. I can't speak for other parts of the world but in the U.S., the majority of the fish that are available in the hobby that are a domestic strain, do not represent the colors of their wild ancestry. There are very few species that are bred for their wild coloring. ( Now even more don't have the original body and fin shape of the originals either.) In fact, some fish don't even exist in the wild ( ie Flowerhorns and Parrot cichlids). These are not extinct in the wild. These are totally man made fish that never existed in the wild. And in the making of these new colors, the process is usually done by either line breeding or hybridization making the end product a weaker fish than a wild counterpart. In some cases, the colored dwarf gourami for example, now has a disease that was man made through the breeding methods of the fish.
One's desire for a wild colored fish vs a new color is not really the point of the OP. I believe, based on his previous post, that if you were to compare a wild version of a fish and a domesticated version of the same fish with those same colors, the wild fish would be a healthier fish and to that, I, as a breeder and someone who has had both wild and domestic fish, have to agree.

As for the "Dory" tang, the article you linked is about 1 1/2 years old and since it's publishing, that Tang has now been bred in captivity like the clownfish ( Nemo). The Blue Tang is also not only found in the 2 areas where they are regarded in the article as "over collected" and the 2 areas listed in that article also have a higher rate of reef bleaching and destructive food fishing practices that may also be a reason why there are less of them available in those areas. So we can consider this part of the comment as an unfinished conversation.

As for your comment " Not everyone can keep these fish properly.....", I have to disagree. Everybody CAN keep fish properly but are unwilling to, mostly due to the cost. The Betta argument also is not a good one as the Bettas offered in most stores are not wild Bettas and are in fact, the result of fish selectively bred to have longer fins and kept in small containers. It's the hobbyist's ill informed opinion that the fish should not be kept that way. Keeping them that way does require more work on the part of the hobbyist and that, I believe, is the origin of the whole "They shouldn't be kept that way" argument. That's not to say that what the stores are doing in keeping them in small containers in dirty water is okay as it's not, but that goes into a whole other tangent about the loss of quality Mom & Pop shops.

To finish, an informed hobbyist is a better hobbyist for sure. The biggest problem now a days is that the information most often referenced is usually the internet and that info is about wild fish while the fish being purchased are domestic lines and live in totally different conditions. There is no doubt that this can be very confusing.
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:48 AM   #19
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Andy, some people want domestic colors, some don't. I think you and I are discussing the same point in different ways.

Two, collection can still cause problems, even in freshwater fish. You can believe otherwise, no one can stop you.

Three, not everyone can keep wild. Fish that need a select diet of live foods that someone can't afford, or can't get a hold of, or any number of things, means they CAN'T keep that fish alive, not that they are 'unwilling' to. If they don't physically have room for the large tank it might need, they can't keep it. My point about the bettas has nothing to do with wild or domestic, but the fact that it really is a simple fish to keep, and an amazing amount of human adults are incapable of doing it. You look at all the rams people kill because they're domestic and should be able to acclimate, they still need the higher temps regardless.

If you really think domestic bettas are ok in small jars because someone is 'willing to do the work' I have nothing more to say.

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Old 01-09-2017, 03:07 AM   #20
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If you really think domestic bettas are ok in small jars because someone is 'willing to do the work' I have nothing more to say.

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To be fair I don't think this was what was inferred by the person's post.

I have kept a lot of fish back in the day, the 'old' way everyone frowns upon now and sure things have changed. I'm attempting to return to the hobby doing the right things. I will even cycle a tank, something entirely new to me. An old dog new tricks thing going on.

If I wanted anything but a live bearer I purchased wild caught fish or nothing at all. So I suppose this has come down to a chicken and egg argument. We would have no fish if it wasn't for the wild caught originals. I remember spending a week's wages buying a pair of wild Discus and had plenty of practice being an expectant father spending hours trying to wean them onto foods.

However somewhere along the line we needed to spruce up the hobby artificially. We took those wild fish and messed with them and not in a nice way. Angels coloured like discus, Glow Fish complete with 120V charge, Psychedelic Discus, and so on ...on and on.

I was surprised to discover that wild freshwater fish were still being caught for the hobby. Knowing that in advance, I think I could handle acclimating them. And for the consumer - who would know if one tank was locally bred or wild caught? I just went, researched and found out.

But my final point is: People would be very surprised at the wild version's size and original condition compared the fish they keep today.

Might even like them better. But I dunno ....I'm still thinking it all through.
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