Discouraged :(

[iceblueconcepts]

Okay, very new to the saltwater community. Got my 55 gallon tank all set up, tons and tons of Figi and other live rock, proper substrate, 3 Maxi1200 powerheads, TurboTwist UV Coralife Sterlizer running on a Maxi600, Protein Skimmer, dual filters, and massive Coralife hi wattage 4 bulb fixture. I let the tank cycle, took the proper steps, introduced the cleaning crew and a few chromis for cycling with the advice from my lfs after testing my water. Things have been going great now for about 4 weeks after introducing my 3 clown percs, skunk clown w/ a pink tip anemone, fairy wrasse, and hippo tang. Also have an open brain coral, trumpet coral, and leather coral. Here in the past day or so my tank seems to have been freaking out. My PH got very low, my fish started showing a few visable ick spots (from what i have been told all fish have ick, it just takes a drastic change in the tank to make it visable). Immediately after testing and finding out that the ph was deperately low, I added Reef buffer slowly all night tonight and in case of emergency I have my 30 gallon qt set up. So my question is.... When will things ever become stable? Will it ever get to a point where I can enjoy my tank and not feel frightened each morning when I check on my fishies? And if so, how can I reach that point? As a newbie at this hobbie I assume that it just takes time and experience to feel comfortable, as most everything in life. But, it's just easy to get discouraged after attempting to take the right steps and pouring around $2000 into the new tank in the past month. Any feedback or advice would be much appreciated! Thanks!

 

[Fluff]

sounds to me like you added things a bit to fast and some water changes may help. Having a proper Ph, isn't as important as having a steady Ph. What are your water test readings? Believe it or not, things do mellow out. You just need to be patient. Your tank is very new and babies need alot of care and attention. Even with an established tank, if you add a large bioload like you have, you can throw your biological filter into chaos. It needs time to catch up and the water changes will help. As for the ich, your gonna need to QT your fish in a separate tank and either do a hypo treatment or copper med treatment to cure them. Then leave your tank fallow (fishless) for 6wks to kill off the parasite in your tank. This is gonna be a drag but, it is necessary to save your fishes. You will need plenty of salt also because your gonna be doing alot of water changes in the QT tank. Hopefully Rev or Quarryshark will come by and give you some better advice on beating the ich. And, lastly, you may want to reconsider that hippo tang. He's not gonna be able to live very long in a 55 gal tank. HTH Good luck.

 

[fishfreek]

I agree with Cindy that regretfully it sounds like your LFS has advised you to add to much to quickly. Please try to go into more detail as to how much rock, what type of 'proper' substrate, what brand/model of 'dual filter' and what kind of lighting and wattage and bulbs are you using.

You dont go into detail about the water peramiters other than that PH was very low. If you can describe the temp, salinity, PH, alkinity, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels we can get a better picture of whats going on. When you check your PH do you do it after the lights have been on for a long time or just after/before lights come on? In four weeks time you went from an empty tank to a tank with a very full bioload. IMO the fish list of ( a few chromis, 3 clown percs, skunk clown w/ a pink tip anemone, fairy wrasse, and hippo tang) is already at its max for the 55. Ideally those fish should have been added over a period of a few months vs a few weeks.

I would put all the fish in the QT tank. Put one of those filters on your QT tank aswell as it should have some level of biofilter working. You can then treat these fish with hyposalinity and garlic in an effort to remove the ich infestaion. While your QTing the fish I would monitor the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels in the main tank. Now that you have corals in the tank you cant cycle with a shrimp so your going to need to keep a monitor of these levels for the next few months as your biofilter catches up. During that time feed VERY sparingly. At most once every other day so as to not overload your bio filter with uneaten food and fish waste.

 

[iceblueconcepts]

I kinda rushed into things by making a post like that last night. Regretfully so, I knew this morning after I woke up that I would check this message thread and everything that I typed would be critiqued in every way like the "a Hippo Tang isn't going to make it very long in a 55". I have a 180 gal wide tank on order from glasscages.com and will be coming in next month. I highy doubt that the 3 inch long tang in my tank will outgrow a 55 gallon in less than a month. Every post that I have ever seen on this site regarding ick or regarding a sick fish always gets a hasty response with the general idea "your fish is very sick QT them immediately". I believe alot of you guys overreact when it comes to diagnosing ick and other parasites or bacteria. So, I leave this site with a bitter taste in my mouth, not because I can't take a few little comments, but because you have scared away a newbie. I am quite sure that I am not the only person who feels this way. I came into this hobby excited and then I found a site that looked like it could be helpful! Little to my demise, all that I have found here are people who really don't care to help, but to make you feel like you aren't welcome into a hobby in which we are new at. Maybe after this post some other people who feel the same will feel as though they can speak up in the same way that I did. From now on, I will be taking advise from my local fish store who has been in business for 15 years, not people that frequent messageboards. I think that would be the safest thing to do. In case you care or wonder, my PH levels were perfect today (checked with a Ph pen), along with the rest of my stats and there wasn't a visable spot on any of my fish.

 

[Fluff]

Sorry you feel that way. I don't understand why you felt unwanted. We are trying to help you. Just because you don't see the ich on your fish, doesn't mean it isn't present. Ich goes through a dormant state where it falls off the fish. When it comes back, it will be back two folds. I'm glad your Ph has stabled and that you are planning a larger tank for the tang. I wish much success for you and your fish.

 

[quarryshark]

Well then why did you ask for out opinions of you are just going to discount them? Just because a LFS has been in business for many years, does not make everything they do right. Examples:

introduced the cleaning crew and a few chromis for cycling with the advice from my lfs after testing my water

These days it is cruel to use fish for cycling, much more humane ways of doing it.

a pink tip anemone, Also have an open brain coral, trumpet coral, and leather coral.

Pretty much common knowledge and widely accepted that these animals should not be placed until a tank matures.

and in case of emergency I have my 30 gallon qt set up

Kinda like closing the door after the horse has already gotten out. If their advise is so sound, they should have advised you qt fish BEFORE you place them in your main system. Now you may have a bigger problem and a lot more work because of this great advise.

I have a 180 gal wide tank on order from glasscages.com and will be coming in next month. I highy doubt that the 3 inch long tang in my tank will outgrow a 55 gallon in less than a month.

Before you flame us on this, please take note that you did not indicate this in your first post.

I believe alot of you guys overreact when it comes to diagnosing ick and other parasites or bacteria.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe some of us have some experiece in treating these ailment and may know a little bit about them? How can you make this determination of you are the self proclaimed "newbie" that you stated. How much research did you do before setting up your system?
We enjoy helping people and will help you solve the many problems that your "all knowing" LFS has helped set up for you, but there is no need to come in here and blast us for the good advise that I see above. If you don't wish to consider our advise, then go back to you LFS with these problems and see what their solution is.

In case you care or wonder, my PH levels were perfect today (checked with a Ph pen), along with the rest of my

By the way, are you sure they will stay that way? Do you know what to do to keep them self sustaining?

there wasn't a visable spot on any of my fish.

Do you know why? Do you think they are gone for ever?
I'm sorry, we are the one of the friendliest fish sites out there, but this thread has gotten my blood boiling a bit.

 

[Phyl]

So, I leave this site with a bitter taste in my mouth, not because I can't take a few little comments, but because you have scared away a newbie. I am quite sure that I am not the only person who feels this way. I came into this hobby excited and then I found a site that looked like it could be helpful! Little to my demise, all that I have found here are people who really don't care to help, but to make you feel like you aren't welcome into a hobby in which we are new at.

WOW! That looks like it came right out of left field! I'm a self proclaimed newbie too, but with the help of the wonderful people here I've learned a TON in the last 5 months! They've been nothing but friendly, welcoming, helpful, informative and there by my side through my battle with ich. Answering questions day and night, allaying my fears and helping me to know what are valid causes for concern.

I'm sorry that you took their comments harshly. I had to re-read them two or three times after I read your message and quite frankly I still don't know why you got so irate (even you apparently know that tang isn't well suited for a 55). I hope your battle with ich is indeed over, I wasn't so lucky. Those spots came and went and came back a few more and went and then BAM! the poor fish looked like spot the dog.

I'm glad that I had learned from them to QT new fish or I'd be dealing with 8 fish with ich instead of 1.

Oh well "A butt for every seat" is what my grandma always says! My butt's going to stay seated right here! Good luck in your endeavors. May you always have healthy fish!

 

[iceblueconcepts]

Good, I'm glad it got your blood boiling. Because, it's not easy to enter into a new hobby and find "good" advice without people like the ones on this site talking down to anyone who doesn't know everything about this hobby. I realize that you and others have done this for quite a while, but I would take a LFS's advice quicker than I would anyone on this site. Maybe it's because I am standing there with a handful of cash and willing to spend it in their store, but I don't leave the store feeling like I was belittled for not knowing about something like marine aquariums. At least they are more than helpful and are open minded enough to be willing to teach someone about a hobby that they love. Good, I'm glad that this thread got you're blood boiling, it was my intention to bring to the attention of whomever this is directed at, that newbies have feelings and don't need to be talked to as though we are 5 year olds in a kindergarten class. I am very good and accomplished at many things throughout my life, but never would I make anyone feel as though I am better than them just because I have done it longer. But, then again... This is what makes people different. And then again, isn't this supposed to be a hobby? I guess that is the difference between me and you... Thanks for the kind words, Fluff. It's good to know that there are still a few people on this site that take peoples feelings into consideration. Gee, I wish I never made the mistake of posting in a forum...

 

[quarryshark]

Maybe it's because I am standing there with a handful of cash and willing to spend it in their store

Thats most likely the reason and as the old saying goes, there is one born every minute.
What a new hobbiest should look at when evaluating advise from people in forums such as this and advise from "some" LFS's is motive. What do we have to gain by sharing out experience with you and taking time out of our day to try and help? What does the LFS gain from it? I'll let you think about that one. But I'm sure you will find that advise condescending as well.

but I would take a LFS's advice quicker than I would anyone on this site

Good for you. wont be getting any from me, I'm done.

 

[Jchillin]

Just my 2 cents FWIW. I joined this forum precisely because of misinformation provided by a LFS. My tank had an ich outbreak. When I went to the store, they gave me ich meds and actually sold me more fish! When I asked if the meds would harm the new fish, they told me no. Needless to say, all of those fish died.

I posted my problem and within a short time, my problem was corrected thanks to the folks on this forum.

If had I known about cycling, QT methods and fish compatibility (which I learned here, not anywhere else), I would not have made the mistake of taking everything the people at LFS said as gospel.

Since then, I decided that I would try to help people who have had the same experience as I had. At no time when I was a "newb" did I get the impression that people in this forum were condescending, harsh or inappropriate.

I read and re-read the post and I still can't see your point. You asked for advice for several different problems, and you got it. Nowhere did I see any reference to your being a newb or inexperienced being the problem. Most of the reasoning for your problem was directed at your LFS, not you.

 

[quarryshark]

Good, I'm glad that this thread got you're blood boiling, it was my intention to bring to the attention of whomever this is directed at, that newbies have feelings and don't need to be talked to as though we are 5 year olds in a kindergarten class. I am very good and accomplished at many things throughout my life, but never would I make anyone feel as though I am better than them just because I have done it longer

One last thing. First, I don't believe that most on this site treat anyone this way. Second, what do you want to hear from us? Would you like us to agree with everything? Do you want straight answers, or reassurance that everything you are doing is 100% correct? We have all made mistakes and by sharing these mistakes we help each other.
I'm done. :|

 

[Devilishturtles]

(from what i have been told all fish have ick, it just takes a drastic change in the tank to make it visable).

Did your LFS tell you this? It's not exactly correct. Fish have a slime coating on the oustide of them. When they stress out alot, they lose this slime coating, which allows ich (a parasite) to attach.

Also, sorry you feel so badly about this site, and the people here. I think you might have taken everyone the wrong way.

Anyways, I wish you good luck with your fish.

 

[Devilishturtles]

You're the best, qshark. 8)

 

[fishfreek]

Thats the first time someone said that the advice I had given them was done in a manor that was demening and/or 'talking down'.

If you wish to leave thats your own decision. You can look at other sites like http://www.reefsantuary.com http://www.reefs.org or http://www.reefcentral.com

Best of luck with your tank and with finding a website thats a 'best fit' for you.

 

[xahx]

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ these are long posts, too bored too read sorry buds.

 

[Rach101]

Things can be read in different ways. The downfall of the internet world, and reading. In any case.. Is it a good thing that the LFS wouldn't have told you about such. Dosn't that kind of mean they are as inexperienced as you are, Or as I am. (( Im a freshwater gal )). All the same, not to say that your LFS isnt great and everything but their purpose is to sell fish, supplies, and medicine. And to keep fish from comming back dead, or alive, within the return policy. Such as the - alive for 14 day policy as petsmart for example. This site is trying to get money from your wallet. So i'd say chill out buddy, take a breather. And just take some things into consideration. ^^ i hope you come to the conclusion that we are not talking down, truly we are only giving you information on our past experiences, or what we have found through friends, or other sites on the internet.

(( Long posts a new trend?? ))

 

[Rach101]

Whoa! Major edit.

This site is trying to get money from your wallet

This site ISNT trying to get money from your wallet!
Whoopsie

 

[fishfreek]

xahx, The least you could do is be respetful of the inital poster and read thru the prevous comments before posting. IMO its stuff like your message that turns people away from the internet when looking for information.

Rach101 has some good comments. While we do accept donations members are in no way required or even expected to donate. Where as with a retail outlet everyone that walks into their store is a potental sale and regretfully very few stores will turn away a potental sale even if they know its in everyone (including the fish or corals) best interest.

 

[cusemarine]

This is a Crazy Post

iceblueconcepts - I am also a newbie and agree with a lot of what you are saying but also realize this is free advice. So I take what I can get. What I find most amusing is that almost all potential "illness" responses start with "you must quarentene" for 6 to 8 weeks. Great advice and also the most conservative.

For many of us newbies we have just spent up to $2000-$3000 on a new HOBBY. Of cource we researched setup, cycling, treatments, water levels, etc. Some of us even checked out several books from the library or ordered them online. But it is hard hearing "go spend another $200 on a QT tank to fix the mistakes made by LFS recommendations". Not to mention finding the space, additional power outlets, treatment chemicals, pounds & pounds of salt, and having to explain to friends and guests why you have screwed up looking fish in a QT and nothing in your nice, main tank. Now that I've vented here's my free newbie response to your issues.

My understanding is you've got a complete setup w/55-gal tank, sterilizer, protein skimmer, LR, and powerheads. Ammonia & nitrite = 0; nitrate <20; had varying pH - now adding buffer; QT tank (size, components unknown).

1. Make sure your carbonate hardness (dKH) stays between 10-12 (this is what the buffer is for- prevents pH swings) - I use Kent Superbuffer. Most LFS don't tell you to test for this. When I first started I lost 3 fish in 2 weeks even though my starter fish (damsels) were not affected.
2. I add Kent Garlic Extreme (~$15) to strengthen fish immunity. It's an all natural supplement that is reef safe (the more online research I do, the more recommendations for Garlic I read).
3. Once you start using the garlic watch the tank for a week and see if the ich has subsided (the ich won't be gone but your fishes immunity may be strong enough to reject it). If this happens then the ich won't find any hosts, your fish will look healthier, and the ich should die off naturally in 6- 8 weeks.
4. If the ich continues to get worse, move the fish to a QT and treat w/a recommended copper treatment.

 

[midiman]

Let me say that it is incumbent upon ALL of us to try to take critique and suggestions without taking it personally or getting offended. I'll bet that the experts on this board have all made their share of mistakes, and now are generous enough with their time to help us all out - they are only trying to help us AVOID errors in our setups.

I, for one, like to hear more than one side of an issue. I would suggest re-reading all of the posts here and elsewhere and you'll see good info delivered straight up - the way it should be. Sometimes there is disagreement, but that's good, too.

These guys are not trying to SELL you anything, so I would take their free advice as something incredibly valuable - it's knowledge gained by experience.

I, for one, will be staying tuned.....