First corals...

[steve-s]

I've just told my LFS I plan to use baserock instead of LR, and he's said he won't supply the corals to me because he doesn't think my tank will be able to sustain the corals we've talked about, certainly if all added at once, with baserock instead of LR, because he has a "responsibility" to ensure the livestock he provides are given the right environment.
Either he wants me to spend loads on LR with him (he doesnt do baserock), or I've actually found a LFS that cares...

What are your views on this??

That your LFS is more concerned about losing the sale of the LR knowing what he'll make on just selling the corals won't even come close. If that's his position then if it was me it would also be his loss to all future business as well.

In The Concientious.. it says that adding more than one coral at once can overload the system/skimming (I dont even have any skimming!)/bacteria etc. because of the amounts of slime each coral can give off after being put into the system. It suggests leaving 2 weeks between coral introductions. Do you agree?

For the most part no, it really depends on the coral species. On the ones we have discussed there would absolutely no concerns. There are certain coral (mainly LPS) that when stressed expell enormous amounts of nematocysts into the water which in a smaller tank can be a concern but none that you or I have talked about. Even then, simple carbon use for a few days after inroduction will remove the water problems just as easy as a skimmer (if not better).

Also, when the corals have been acclimated over the hour, can I pick them up out of their bags with my bare hands and place them in the tank? ie. is it ok without gloves, and can the corals be out of the water for a few seconds?

It's always a good practice to transfer corals underwater and not touch them with bare hands. That said though the ones we have discussed will not be harmed by doing so. They should in fact be able to be handled by the rock they are attached to.

And, calcification will bring alkalinity (and calcium) levels down won't it, which may affect pH - do the corals I've chosen calcify a lot or not much, compared to other corals?

Yes when coral and other animals deposit CaCO3 in their growth it will deplete both alk and Ca. That I can remember, we have only discussed soft corals and none will affect the levels.

The depletion of alkalinity will not necessarily affect pH unless the pH levels where troublesome and low to begin with. If your pH is at the proper level and stable now, there is no reason that will change any time soon. Ca has no direct affect on pH.

Since I'm going to QT the LR for a week and test for ammonia etc. (if I do get the LR), the main thing I'm worried about is hitchhikers - pistols/mantis etc.

I'm planning on doing a carbonated SW dip before it's put in my tank after the QT, but I guess it's not 100% certain it'll get them all out, and also could damage the rock as far as bacteria goes etc.? What are your views matey?

I'm not totally sold on the dipping process but if you intend to keep the newly aquired rock seperate to be sure it does not need have additional die off, that will also give you the proper time to examine the rock for unwanted hitchikers. If the rock is as well cured as your LFS claims, there most likely won't be any. Personally I would opt for a high salinity dip rather than the seltzer dip but that's me.

Cheers
Steve

 

[MarkW19]

Thanks Steve...

Yeah we only talked about soft corals/polyps/mushrooms. They won't affect the levels of alk and CA at all then?

The corals will only be out of the water for a few seconds anyway, so no probs.

"If the rock is as well cured as your LFS claims, there most likely won't be any" - is that ammonia or hitchhikers?

And, re my LFS stance on the LR - is he right to say my tank won't be able to sustain the corals without the extra LR, using baserock instead, especially if the corals are all introduced at once? Or is there absolutely no difference after the baserock has become live anyway, and that first few weeks while it's being colonised is of no concern? Therefore it doesn't matter whether I get LR or baserock?

Don't know if he really does care, or if he wants me to buy the LR...

 

[steve-s]

Yeah we only talked about soft corals/polyps/mushrooms. They won't affect the levels of alk and CA at all then?

No

The corals will only be out of the water for a few seconds anyway, so no probs.

None

"If the rock is as well cured as your LFS claims, there most likely won't be any" - is that ammonia or hitchhikers?

Both! The word "if" has a very far reaching scope though 8)

And, re my LFS stance on the LR - is he right to say my tank won't be able to sustain the corals without the extra LR, using baserock instead, especially if the corals are all introduced at once?

Complete hogwash. Corals do not add to the bioload in any regard really. If anything the base piece of the corals provide more surfcae area's for bacteria and soft corals actually consume nitrates to a small degree, they do not produce them.

Or is there absolutely no difference after the baserock has become live anyway, and that first few weeks while it's being colonised is of no concern? Therefore it doesn't matter whether I get LR or baserock?

No concerns whatsoever. As long as there is a source to seed the new base rock, (which you already have) then it's all good.

Don't know if he really does care, or if he wants me to buy the LR...

As I said before :censor: :censor: :censor: LFS

Cheers
Steve

 

[MarkW19]

Kewl...

So, LR doesn't add anything to the tank apart from bacteria for the nitrogen cycle, and hitchhikers? No other beneficial things?

 

[steve-s]

Kewl...

So, LR doesn't add anything to the tank apart from bacteria for the nitrogen cycle, and hitchhikers? No other beneficial things?

Well cured LR won't usually add much more than micro fauna, bacteria, bugs and worms. With uncured LR you get all the goodies.

Base rock will just add additional surface area for bacteria and the like to colonize, nothing more really.

Cheers
Steve

 

[MarkW19]

How could micro fauna/bugs/worms benefit the corals we've talked about?

 

[steve-s]

They help consume/breakdown the detritus produced by fish and such which in turn helps to maintain water quality and not overtax the biofilteration. Some of the micro critters will actually help feed the corals.

Cheers
Steve

 

[MarkW19]

So he could be right in what he said about the LR being much better for the corals then? The LR will help more with water quality and help feed the corals, which have to be beneficial?

 

[steve-s]

So he could be right in what he said about the LR being much better for the corals then? The LR will help more with water quality and help feed the corals, which have to be beneficial?

If you did not already have some LR then yes, he would be right to a small degree. In this case though he is completely off.

In fact, the LR you already have will seed the new base rock so there is no difference. The seeding will happen in a few short weeks. Your LFS is just trying to prey on what he figures you don't know or seem unsure of.

Cheers
Steve

 

[MarkW19]

You know I've never bought any LR though, right? And the microfauna/bugs/worms won't ever be on my new baserock as they're not on my rock now, so this is the only part that could make a difference I guess.

The one largeish piece I have at the moment was bought as dry baserock. Of course, after 7 months (and coupled with my 2.5" livesand) it will be "live" by now, although not with the microfauna/bugs/worms of course.

The microfauna/bugs/worms will only help the corals a tiny percentage though, and by no means at all will keeping LR sustain the corals whereas baserock will not?

Quickie: does any LFS easily make much more profit on Fiji LR (UK store of course) rather than corals?

 

[MarkW19]

Would feeding phytoplankton either every day or every other day at to the bioload?

 

[Shultz]

Quickie: does any LFS easily make much more profit on Fiji LR (UK store of course) rather than corals?

Depends on how much they charge for the LR, STM do 20kgs of LR for £189 delivered thats £9.45 per kg, so if your LFS is more than £10 per kg then yes, but then again if he's buying corals cheap he maybe marking up by 100-200%? so then no

Cheers Shelton.

 

[steve-s]

You know I've never bought any LR though, right?

:? No I did not. From an earlier post, I was under the impression you did.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?p=263946#263946

I don't have much liverock by the way...just one piece 15" x 8" x 7". Also 2" livesand.

And the microfauna/bugs/worms won't ever be on my new baserock as they're not on my rock now, so this is the only part that could make a difference I guess.

If the rock and sand you have now are completely void of critters, that still does not mean you must get LR to be successful at all. I would however suggest buying a small select amount to seed the base rock. In either event it will not hinder your success in any way.

FWIW, I highly doubt your tank has no critters in it. If you've added anything with rock attached to it (ie corals) then there is no possible way nothing came in with it.

The one largeish piece I have at the moment was bought as dry baserock. Of course, after 7 months (and coupled with my 2.5" livesand) it will be "live" by now, although not with the microfauna/bugs/worms of course.

The microfauna/bugs/worms will only help the corals a tiny percentage though, and by no means at all will keeping LR sustain the corals whereas baserock will not?

The bugs will not make or break your success. They do help reduce your maintenance but as I said earlier, I highly doubt you haven't any.

Quickie: does any LFS easily make much more profit on Fiji LR (UK store of course) rather than corals?

What Shelton said rings true but what I was refering to was total profit dollars. Buying the LR would put more money in his pocket than the corals we've discussed.

Would feeding phytoplankton either every day or every other day at to the bioload?

It would greatly overtax the biofilter depending on how much was added. Not to mention the nasty algae growth that would ensue.

Cheers
Steve

 

[MarkW19]

It wasn't bought as liverock, it was bought as dry baserock...what I meant was that it will be live by now when I called it "liverock"...

Although of course, no critters etc. will have come in on it

Perhaps they did from my livesand, which was the bagged variety with water in it - and I guess I could get a small amount from the LR my corals come attached to as well.

I've sent you a PM - if you wouldn't mind taking a quick look at it matey?

 

[MarkW19]

Do you think there may have been some critters in my bagged livesand?

And, I guess the LR the corals/polyps/shrooms come on won't have any undesirable hitchhikers on, and you said there'll be no probs with ammonia for this?

 

[steve-s]

Do you think there may have been some critters in my bagged livesand?

There is a very small chance almost not worth mentioning but I highly doubt it.

And, I guess the LR the corals/polyps/shrooms come on won't have any undesirable hitchhikers on, and you said there'll be no probs with ammonia for this?

Most likely no ammonia but when I was refering to no hitchikers, that was for well cured LR or wet base rock. With coral rock there is always a possibility of something but not in the problem sort of way. You will definately get worms and pods, mabye a snail or even opossums.

Cheers
Steve

 

[MarkW19]

Guess ATM I have no critters at all then

Re: the coral rock hitchhikers: cool - but no mantis or pistols or anything "bad"?

I guess the polyps and shrooms will come on quite a bit of LR - would it be an idea to put this in QT and test for ammonia with it being a substantial portion?

And re. baserock: I'll get 10kg as you suggested. My LFS has a bunch of nice-looking dry rock in a basket. Will test it with vinegar and if it fizzes I'll get it...

I guess a quick rinse with SW will get the vinegar off, but I dont really know where the rock has been at all, it's just all piled up in a basket in the decor section. People could have been handling it or anything...sure it's ok to put straight in after a good SW rinse?

 

[steve-s]

Guess ATM I have no critters at all then

I thought you already had a few softies in the tank? If so, did they not have solid bases to them or just the coral flesh?

but no mantis or pistols or anything "bad"?

Shouldn't, no.

I guess the polyps and shrooms will come on quite a bit of LR - would it be an idea to put this in QT and test for ammonia with it being a substantial portion?

As rule it's not needed but it should be carefully inspected for flatworms and the like.

And re. baserock: I'll get 10kg as you suggested. My LFS has a bunch of nice-looking dry rock in a basket. Will test it with vinegar and if it fizzes I'll get it...

I guess a quick rinse with SW will get the vinegar off, but I dont really know where the rock has been at all, it's just all piled up in a basket in the decor section. People could have been handling it or anything...sure it's ok to put straight in after a good SW rinse?

If you feel there might be a concern of handling contamination, you can let it sit in a pail of SW with carbon and a powerhead for a few days. To be honest I don't think you'll have any issues with a quick rinse and into the tank.

Cheers
Steve

 

[MarkW19]

No softies (or any corals at all) ATM no.

I'll smell the new baserock thoroughly, and if it's ok I'll give it a couple of very good rinses in SW. Does it have to be SW it's rinsed in, or can I rinse it in FW (out of the tap) and allow it to dry naturally (left out for a day or two)?

What about the 1kg piece of LR you suggested - should I be worried about ammonia on this, even with it being so small?

Quick smell and inspection and straight in do you think?

 

[MarkW19]

Is there any type of LR thats better - ie. Fiji, Florida, etc. ?