Fish Dieing, Need Help...

[TheChad]

Hey all,

I have a 29 gal tank, I had a Yellow tail Damsel, Percula Clown, and a Copperbanded Butterfly. In the last week we have lost both the percula Clown, and the Yellow Tail Damsel.


The Percula clown stopped eating one day, and a few days later he died. The Damsel a couple days after the clown died, stopped eating, and today he died.

Right now the only Fish left is the Copperbanded butterfly, and we definitly DON'T want him to die.

Right now he is normal, he is eating fine and acting fine.

We also have 2 shrimp, a Fire Shrimp, and a Camel shrimp.

The Clown showed no visable signs of anything, but the damsel had about 5 pin hole white dots on his body the few days before he died.

(I don't SEE any on the butterfly, but obviously he has alot of white, so if there are pin hole white spots on his white bands, i can't see them)

I don't have a QT tank, only my main tank.

We just bought Ich Attack which is organic and is suppose to be Invert safe. Does anyone have any experience with this?

We also bought Kents extreme garlic which I am told is suppose to help keep the parasites under controll.


If it is a parasite, obviously we need to cure the tank before adding any fish back in.

If we do need to treat the tank and or fish with copper, I have thought about buying a 10 gal tank (If that's large enough?), and I could either put just the fish in there, or I could put the Shrimp in there, while treating the main tank.

Any input would be helpfull.

Thanks,

-TheChad

 

[steve-s]

Please provide some information/history about the fish additions and how far apart. Please include any physical observations no matter how minor other than the appetite loss and spots. Please also include a more accurate time frame of when the fish passed relative to each other.

Lethargy, color loss, surface gulping, excess body slime, white/stringy feces, sheen on the fish (like gold specks), mouth gaping, swollen or sunken belly, red or white areas, scales missing/standing on end or anything else.

Do not treat the fish in the 29 gal. Buy the 10 gal and get it set up ASAP. You will most likely need to treat the Bfly but if you end up needing/using copper it cannot be done in the 29 and then return the shrimp later. The chances of copper ruining the main display for inverts is very high.

Cheers
Steve

 

[TheChad]

The Yellow Tail Damsel has been in the tank since December 17~, and has never shown any sign of stress or anything else. He has always eaten very well.

The Percula Clown was added January 5th, and never showed any signs of stress or anything else. He stopped eating, and began staying in a small area on January 17th~, He died on January 19~. I never saw anything unusual on his body.

I noticed Pin Hole size white spots on the Damsel on January 19~, he also stopped eating, and not swiming activly on January 19~, He died On January 22.

The Yellow Tail Damsel did turn a pale blue, almost a white hue in the last couple of days.

I didn't see any of the other signs you mention. But note the clown and the Yellow Tail Damsel were both very small, about 3/4", so breathing was hard to see.

I will buy the 10 gal tomarrow. and get it set up. What all should be set up in the QT? Heater, Filter, etc?


Thanks,

-TheChad

 

[steve-s]

When was the Bfly added in relation to these deaths?

I will buy the 10 gal tomarrow. and get it set up. What all should be set up in the QT? Heater, Filter, etc?

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/quarantinetanks.html

Cheers
Steve

 

[TheChad]

The butterfly was added on January 15th.

-TheChad

 

[steve-s]

I would highly suspect Amyloodinium ocellatum (velvet) then. Fish do not die in days from C. irritans. Get the QT set up ASAP and begin a copper treatment. Cupramine would be your best option here and I would be sure to get the corresponding multi test copper kit. Red Sea and AquariumPharm test kits will also work in a pinch.

Cheers
Steve

 

[TheChad]

Should I start copper treatment right away on the butterfly, before any symtoms?

How will I know when it is safe to put the butterfly back into the main tank?

Should I be doing anything to the main tank? Or just let it be with just the shrimp?

With the butterfly showing no signs of problems, How will I know when he is cured in the QT?

Thanks,

-TheChad

 

[steve-s]

Should I start copper treatment right away on the butterfly, before any symtoms?

Given the quick deaths of the other fish in relation to the Bfly being added, yes. Unfortunately the symptoms of velvet are often not seen until it's too late. Bfly's are also commonly prone to velvet and while nothing concrete, a definate probability.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=46

How will I know when it is safe to put the butterfly back into the main tank?With the butterfly showing no signs of problems, How will I know when he is cured in the QT?

If you perform the copper treatment properly, testing the concentration twice daily and the proper length of time, it will be erradicated quite easily.

Should I be doing anything to the main tank? Or just let it be with just the shrimp?

Leave the tank fallow for at least a month. The copper treatment will take about 2 weeks so once done with, leave the fish there an additional 2 weeks or so which will allow the problem to die out on it's own. Just feed the tank a wee bit 1-2x a week to maintain the biofilter. Only fish are affected by this parasite so inverts will be fine in the display tank.

Cheers
Steve

 

[TheChad]

Everything I have read about velvet says that a shrimp can carry the parasite. I understand it doesn't affect them, my question is, is it possible for the parasite to live on the shrimp?

Also The Camel Shrimp was added the same time as the Bfly, so that tells me that it was either the Bfly or the camel shrimp that brought the parasite to the tank... If it was the Bfly, i would think he would have been the FIRST one affected?!?!

I will purchase the 10 gal tank tomarrow. Will putting a 4" butterfly in a 10 gal tank for a month be bad for him? (Stress, or otherwise unhealthy?) Especially with no substraite, plants, or anything?

If I read that webpage you posted correctly, All I need to do is have a tank, heater, HOB Filter, and an airstone, and maybe a rock or some kind of hiding place? If that is true, I should be able to build the tank tomarrow and get the salt in, should be able to put the BFly in on the 24th.

P.S. On a different note, are shrimp affected by the cycle process? The reason I ask is because we are getting a 55gal from a friend to upgread to, if the shrimp are not affected by the cycle process I could place them in the tank, and treat the 29 gal tank, once the Bfly has been treated, and the 55gal has cycled I could place him in the new 55gal tank!?

For the future, we will have this 29 gal as a QT tank. When we get new fish and place them in in the QT, should we be treating the QT automatically? Weather the fish has anything or not, just to make sure? I understand placing them into QT will prevent outbreak like we are currently experiencing, but if they were affected by a parasite, and no treatment was added to the QT, than as soon as you place them into the main tank, it would begin the outbreak!?

I assume Copper isn't bad for the fish? Will it cause the fish stress or any discomfort that i should be watching for?

Thanks for the help.

-TheChad

 

[steve-s]

Everything I have read about velvet says that a shrimp can carry the parasite. I understand it doesn't affect them, my question is, is it possible for the parasite to live on the shrimp?

It is possible for the shrimp to transport the parasite but is not affected by it. Since the parasite cannot feed on anything but fish, it does not require treatment. Most problems can/will in fact be transported by anything wet animal or otherwise.

Also The Camel Shrimp was added the same time as the Bfly, so that tells me that it was either the Bfly or the camel shrimp that brought the parasite to the tank... If it was the Bfly, i would think he would have been the FIRST one affected?!?!

Definately a possibility but you never mentioned the shrimp earlier. As I said though, anything wet.

I will purchase the 10 gal tank tomarrow. Will putting a 4" butterfly in a 10 gal tank for a month be bad for him? (Stress, or otherwise unhealthy?) Especially with no substraite, plants, or anything?

Not the best situation no but unless you have better options...

If I read that webpage you posted correctly, All I need to do is have a tank, heater, HOB Filter, and an airstone, and maybe a rock or some kind of hiding place? If that is true, I should be able to build the tank tomarrow and get the salt in, should be able to put the BFly in on the 24th.

Yes but be sure to use either the main tanks water to fill it or well aged/aerated SW. Be sure you have plenty of SW made at all times. You will most likely need a few water changes daily to deal with ammonia etc. If you can transfer some biomaterial from the main tank that will help but not immediately. Be sure it is not carbon, resin/sorbant or CaCO3 material (sand/rock etc).

P.S. On a different note, are shrimp affected by the cycle process? The reason I ask is because we are getting a 55gal from a friend to upgread to, if the shrimp are not affected by the cycle process I could place them in the tank, and treat the 29 gal tank, once the Bfly has been treated, and the 55gal has cycled I could place him in the new 55gal tank!?

All marine animals are affected by the cycle. Ammonia and nitrite are toxic and will kill, some faster than others. You could actually return any inverts you have and use the 29 gal as the QT and cycle the 55 anyway. You would have to remove all the rock and sand as well. Please keep in mind that time is not on your side though.

For the future, we will have this 29 gal as a QT tank. When we get new fish and place them in in the QT, should we be treating the QT automatically? Weather the fish has anything or not, just to make sure? I understand placing them into QT will prevent outbreak like we are currently experiencing, but if they were affected by a parasite, and no treatment was added to the QT, than as soon as you place them into the main tank, it would begin the outbreak!?

The only prophylactic treatments I would ever suggest are hyposalinity (for C. irritans) and deworming. That is only after being sure there is no threat of any other issue. To administer a treatment without knowing what your treating can be just as harmful as a parasite/disease. If you wait a full 4 weeks before introducing the fish to the display tank, the chances of a parasite not showing up in that time are very slim. If treating prophylactically, wait 2 weeks for observation before starting the hypo. If something shows up otherwise, treat that first.

I assume Copper isn't bad for the fish? Will it cause the fish stress or any discomfort that i should be watching for?

Copper is a poison but unfortunately the best treatment for velvet. You have no real options with this I'm afraid other than choosing a copper treatment that will cause less of an issue with the fish and that would be Cupramine. The main concern during any treatment of this type is maintaining the concentration and keeping the water quality high enough that it does not contribute to the fish's poor health.

Cheers
Steve

 

[TheChad]

I went to the LFS, Petco, and Petsmart. The only copper treatment's I was able to find was CFX Parasite Terminator, Made by Marine Enterprises International. OR CopperSafe by Mardel.

The CFX was 2x the price, So i figured it was the better of the 2, and purchased that.

Also they only had 1 copper test kit it is made by Marine Enterprises Internation as well.


I will take 10gal of water from our 29 gal tank, since the only thing left in the 29gal will be our shirmp. I will replentish the 29gal over the next few Days.

I have an airstone for the QT Tank, but everything says no carbon filter. But that's the only filter media available. So if i take that out, then its just a water pump moving the water around.

It sounds like the only filter usefull would be a Bio Wheel.


So should i still put the filter with out any media? Will the above chemicles be ok for this treatment?

----------------

CFX Parasite Terminator
A unique formulation of copper and formaldehyde (copper 1.5%, formaldehyde 14%), in an ionized (chemically bonded) form. This stabilization process involves a separate catalyst agent that reacts with and bonds the compound physically altering the molecular structure of the two basic substances so that the final product is totally unlike either copper or formaldehyde in their original forms.


Thanks.

-TheChad

 

[demodiki]

You ar egoing to need something to act as a filter in your QT. For instance, I use an old HOB power filter that has an area where I can keep a sponge.

The sponge comes from my main tank. After the QT/treatment...I just buy a new (small) sponge and toss the old one.

I know that isn't going to help you now but keep this in mind in the future.

 

[TheChad]

This is a Top Fin HOB filter. The cartrage has carbon in it. They only make 1 cartrage for it.

So I don't know what else to do to make it work!?

I guess I could fill the open area of the filter with Bio Balls? Or does it need a sponge of some sort?

Thanks,

-TheChad

 

[steve-s]

If the HOB has a biowheel attachment, that would be ideal. They work amazingly well for QT applications. Barring that, the bioballs or sponge will work just as well. You need some sort of biological source, surface area's will not suffice. If using a sponge, be sure it gets rinsed in clean SW daily to remove heavy organics.

RE: the CFX, if you haven't used it, take it back. Copper and formaldehyde combinations are nasty and can easily kill the fish if not used exactly as instructed. Even then, the instances of death are pretty good. The Mardel product is pretty good, just not as good as the Cupramine. Be sure the concentration in the QT is tested 2x daily to be sure the level remains stable.

Cheers
Steve

 

[TheChad]

I haven't yet opened the CFX, I will take it back tomarrow and buy the Copper Safe. It is my only other option, as there are no other LFS close.

I put the Bfly in the QT tank today, I put 7 gal of the Main tank water, and 3 gal of freshly mixed Instant Ocean.

Should I keep the SG at 1.023 or should I lower it?

I purchase some 30 Pours Per Inch Bulk Sponge and placed it in the HOB filter.

We also purchased Ceramic Cylinders Media, Which said they are a great place for good bactiera to grow. Should I put some of thease in after the sponge? (Only about 15-20 cylinders would fit in the HOB filter).

If you rince the Sponge daily, wont that rid the good bactiera?

We will begin Copper treatment tomarrow (1/24/2006) with the Copper Safe.

The Bfly is doing ok, he is swiming around, he ate a little, no where near what he normally eats. (He ate normally this morning, before we put him in the QT tank)

Thanks,

-TheChad

 

[Seepu]

Youre tank is coming up on a month old now, isnt it?

 

[steve-s]

Should I keep the SG at 1.023 or should I lower it?

Leave it at 1.023 SG

I purchase some 30 Pours Per Inch Bulk Sponge and placed it in the HOB filter.

Be sure this is an aquarium safe sponge. Commercial sponges will contain anti fungal agents.

We also purchased Ceramic Cylinders Media, Which said they are a great place for good bactiera to grow. Should I put some of thease in after the sponge? (Only about 15-20 cylinders would fit in the HOB filter).

That would help, just be sure they are not CaCO3 (usually clay or alumina), a dab of vinegar should confirm that.

If you rince the Sponge daily, wont that rid the good bactiera?

Not as long as you use SW that is the same temp/pH. Preferabley use the water taken out at water changes. FW or extreme variances in pH/temp will kill the bateria otherwise.

The Bfly is doing ok, he is swiming around, he ate a little, no where near what he normally eats. (He ate normally this morning, before we put him in the QT tank)

Test the water specs at least 2x a day along with the copper. Also soak the foods in a liquid vitamin additive like Zoe or Vita chem, something with a good B12 content. Adding directly to the water would help appetite as well.

Cheers
Steve

 

[TheChad]

Well Happy to report, he is back to eating about 13-20 shrimp's per feeding again, on his own.

All the water parameters were good, except Ammonia was at .50, we did a water change with fresh SW. (What is considered a safe range? Is .50 considered toxic?)

We tested the copper, but the test results were not on the chart.

The highest the chart goes is 1.0, and the color of the test is darker than the 1.0 color. But according to the CopperSafe instructions the copper level is suppose to be between 1.5-2.0ppm. So I guess it is about right.

We did exactly as the direction stated on the bottle of CopperSafe. 1 teaspoon for every 4 gallons, so we put in 2.5 teaspoons.

The CopperSafe test said it should be at the 1.5-2.0ppm, But the Copper test kit said the Copper leve should be between .15-.3ppm when treating parasites. That's a big difference! What is right?

Thanks,

-TheChad

 

[TheChad]

I test the water, and get .50 ppm Ammonia, I do a water change of about 4 gallons, and retest 2 hours later, still getting .50 ppm ammonia.

-TheChad

 

[TheChad]

I noticed today the the Bfly has white spots all over his tail and side fins, which are clear in color. He may have some on his body but since he is mostly white, i can't really tell.

I thought the copper treatment was suppose to kill the parasites? This worries me because this is what happened to the Yellow Tail Damsel before He died.

Thankfully the Bfly is still eating at this point, and swiming around, that is a + over the Damsel and Clown that died.

Thanks,

-TheChad