help! sick puffer?

[murcos]

Okay, so this past week I had a colt coral (a newly added guy) who wasn't looking so hot. I did a water change about a week ago as well. My levels I think were all okay.

Backup, here's what I have in my tank...I had, for a while, a star, clown, blenny. Then I added a lemonpeel angel, three green chromies, and a spotted puffer. I had my tank up and running for a couple months when I added these last guys.

Today I realized my little puffer was kinda lying on a rock. Then he would go up and float at the top of the tank, seeming to get air. I decided to test the levels (all the other fish seemed to be fine), and found that my nitrites and nitrates were zero, my salinity .025, and pH was fine. However, my ammonia was almost at 1.0. So, I took emoergency action and did about a 40% water change to see if I could bring the ammonia down and save my puffer..

My ammonia level is down to about .25, and everyone seems happy but that little puffer...he is still floating at the top, kind of tipped a little by the protein skimmer. I am also worried becuase my salinity somehow dropped to about .018 after the water change, I am not sure how that happened. Is this going to hurt these guys (it is 1am and I also ran out of salt so I have no way to bring this up until tomorrow morning). I know that sudden drops in salinity can hurt the marine life, so I am concerned.

Any advice about the puffer? Should I still do another water change tomorrow to continue to bring the ammonia down? Any help with this would be great.

Thanks....
Mary

 

[steve-s]

The drop in salinity is not all that bad although a tad more than you'd like in one go. Fish can tolerate it quite well for the most part. I hope you double checked the reading to be sure. It's increases in salinity that are damaging and must be done very slowly over days. The starfish/inverts will be the ones that will react the worst to the drop, not the fish.

Definately continue with the water changes to eliminate the ammonia. Also continue to monitor nitrite and nitrate for a bit as well. The cause is from adding to much too fast especially to a young tank. Fish primarily should be added slowly, tank size depending. One every month or so unless mated pairs. It gives the biofilter time to catch up to each new addition. As you can see the addition of too many taxes the biofilter and allows a rise in the nitrogens.

Be sure the water used for the changes is well aged/aerated for a day ahead.

Cheers
Steve

 

[murcos]

oh no!

Well, I think that the salinity (or something) caused some damage last night. The puffer still isn't looking well, the cromies are swimming madly back and forth and they looklike they are having seizures, the tang is losing his color slightly. Suprisingly the coral is doing rather well, and so is my little clown. I am going to the store first thing when they open this morning to get salt, but what is the best way to raise this and still be able to save these guys. I feel so bad. How much is to much to raise the salinity at once? Please help!!!
Mary

 

[mykpoz]

quick question for high bio-load types of fish etc... dont you need a bit more then a skimmer? I've always seen people who have these types of fish have a skimmer and a mech. filter of sorts...

 

[murcos]

Yes, I have a protien skimmer and a waterfall type filter as well.

 

[steve-s]

Oddly enough, the drop in salinity is not what's causing the fish's distress. The ammonia is larger consern. Ammonia affects the gills quite severly causing hyperplasia which can take some time to recover from. The damage is often permanent to a certain degree. The fish will continue to look distressed for a few days yet.

As far as your salinity increase, you have two ways to go about this. One, do your water changes with less than normal SW values and slowly increase the salinity over days. You need to be very careful here not to exceed 0.001/day. Mix your new SW to 1.019-1.020 to be on the safe side since you'll want to do larger water changes in order to eliminate the ammonia. Please be sure the new SW mixes at least overnight before use. You'll do far more damage than good if you use the SW too quickly.

Two, once the ammonia is dealt with, simpley allow the water to evap and top off with SW at the desired salinity. It will eventually reach the right level in time. This is the least stressful to the inhabitants since it is a slow process they can adjust to it rather easily.

Cheers
Steve

 

[murcos]

sad day

Well, after much effort I was able to get the ammonia down and the salt back up. However, the puffer never recovered, and this morning he was belly up. Two of the chromies have the shimmies (it only seems to be at night though, weird. Everyone else seems to be doing well. I felt so bad...I am not sure what to do now...I did another water change this morning to get the last trace of ammonia down. I don't know if I should wait a while before adding a replacement fish?
Also, my poor little starfish seems to be being pecked at by the lemonpeel. We hardly ever see the star because he is under the sand most of the time, but I am worried that the angel may hurt him. Should I consider removing the star?

Thanks for the help.
Mary

 

[Hara]

I was going to ask about inverts...salinity changes and water quality can quickly knock them out of commission. If you have snails, I would try accounting for them. Dieing snails hiding behind rocks can add to the problems quickly.

Just to mention, you seem to be adding fish quite rapidly and that may be your problem. Your filtration does not have time to adapt to the load you are imposing on it.

As far as the starfish, keep an eye on it. You also have fish in there that are not known to do too well with corals.

 

[seaham358]

Mary you need to slow way down... You must have missed the part where Steve says you added to many fish to fast...
What size tank do you have and how much lr, besides the skimmer you have a HOB filter?
You need to give the tank time to recover before you add anything, you may still loose fish /inverts from this so you need to slow way down.
Nothing good happens fast in this hobby... Only bad things happen fast!!!

 

[steve-s]

Re: sad day

Sorry for your loss....

and the salt back up.

This is far too quick of a change depending on where the salinity is now. Two days ago the SG was reported at 1.018, at best, the SG should be 1.020-21 at this point. I was quite serious about raising the salinity. The fish cannot adjust quickly and it can affect them severely. You must increase salinity no more than 0.001 each day. It should have taken a little over a week to get back to a proper reef salinity.

I don't know if I should wait a while before adding a replacement fish?

As with what the others have said, you need to take your time. Wait at least a month before fish additions. Be sure the ammonia is stable on it's own without intervention on your part before you consider any other additions, fish or otherwise.

Also, my poor little starfish seems to be being pecked at by the lemonpeel. We hardly ever see the star because he is under the sand most of the time, but I am worried that the angel may hurt him. Should I consider removing the star?

I've always cautioned against sea stars in newer tanks and even more so if this is a sandsifting star. They really do quite poorly in a captive environment unless in a very large tank with a thriving sandbed. Even the decorative stars should be kept in no less than a 100 gal tank, plenty of LR, well matured (1+ year) and absolutely no competition for food resources.

Cheers
Steve

 

[murcos]

terrible!

Well, I think that I put too much trust in my local fish store guy. I thought he knew what he was talking about, especially since he owns the place I guessed he was the expert. Each time I added new fish or changed anything, I consulted with him first. When I raised the salinity, they had told me to do it at once because the lack of salt would hurt the fish more than bringing back up.
Sadly, it looks as if my lemonpeel is dying. She is laying at the bottom of the tank, breathing hard. My ammonia is at 0, nitrite almost exactly 0, and nitrate, just a tine above 0. My salinity is .023, and pH is 8.2. The fish I have left (the 3 chromies and the blenny, the star, and the colt coral) are all doing seemingly wonderful. But that angel is about to die. I brought a water sample in to the LFS today just to double check my numbers, and he said that they were all ok. He knows the history, but says that he didn't think it would have contributed this far along. I am sad that I have lost so many fish. I think that I will wait some time before adding anything, and just keep these guys that I have surviving. How do I go about getting a good LFS? I tried Petco and they seemed to not have a clue to what they were talking about. I put too much trust in the guys that I was using.
Any advice from here? Thank you guys for your help...you have been wonderful, I just wish I would have talked to you sooner before all this happened.
Sadly,
Mary

 

[steve-s]

Re: terrible!

How do I go about getting a good LFS? I tried Petco and they seemed to not have a clue to what they were talking about. I put too much trust in the guys that I was using.
Any advice from here?

Personally I would suggest you not look at the LFS as a source of information but rather a source for the supplies you need, nothing more. Once in a while you will stumble across a decent operator that is just as interested in your success as their own. Unfortunately, they are few and far between.

Your best ally is knowledge. Read as much as you can here and the many resources on the net. I think you would benefit greatly from a few books that can help as a guide and reference as you progress.

There's some suggested ones here...
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/saltbook.php

Or you can visit your local library for what they have to offer.

Cheers
Steve

 

[murcos]

where i stand

Okay, so I figured I would utilize my resources. I have spent the last couple days with my head in the books every free second I get. But, if I may ask a question, that would be appreciated.
I think I still have questions on the whole ammonia cycle. I have been diligently testing my water since all of this happened so I can figure out what is going on. Currently, my ammonia is back down to 0, my nitrites are almost all the way to 0, and my nitrates are up a little....about 10ppm. Do I do a water change to bring the nitrates down? Do I let things go as they are? What is the best way to run this? I think I get confused here a bit.
THe fish in there seem happy, as the the inverts. I am going to wait a while before I do anything...and study study study!
THanks y'all for the help!
Mary

 

[steve-s]

Re: where i stand

I think I still have questions on the whole ammonia cycle. I have been diligently testing my water since all of this happened so I can figure out what is going on. Currently, my ammonia is back down to 0, my nitrites are almost all the way to 0, and my nitrates are up a little....about 10ppm. Do I do a water change to bring the nitrates down? Do I let things go as they are? What is the best way to run this? I think I get confused here a bit.

Ammonia and nitrite are the biggest concerns, they need to be zero at all times and are the most destructive to life in the tank. Moreso the ammonia though. Nitrate is a much less harmful nitrogen to fish but invertebrates are/can be sensitive to it depending on the species and the level.

10 ppm NO3 in a system with simple mobile inverts and fish is actually not bad. Personally in a new tank I try to keep them closer to 5 ppm depending on what I will be adding to it. Some will say levels upto or beyond 40-60 ppm in FO systems (no inverts) is fine which I completely disagree with. It represents a nasty breeding ground for opportunistic bacteria & parasites living in the system waiting for a fish with a compromised immune system. If you need to bring that down for whatever reason, water changes with well aged/aerated SW is the best choice. NNR takes time depending on the bioload and set up, which can take several months or longer for the system to acheive. It usually does not happen until the waste load becomes static and the additions of new animals is less frequent or not at all.

Does that help some or were you looking for something more specific?

Cheers
Steve