Hole in Head Disease

[dicjones]

I recently had to move all of my fish to a quarantine tank because of an outbreak of marine velvet in my display aquarium. I've treated them with copper for about 3 weeks now and are getting close to releasing them back into the display tank. During the time that the Blue Hippo has been in the quarantine tank he has developed an ever worsening case of lateral line disease. I'm wondering if anyone knows weather the copper itself may be causing this. I understand he is probably stressed and the water quality initially suffered because it was an emergency "evacuation" from the display tank. The bicolor angelfish shows no signs of anything. Thanks!

 

[scuba_steve]

what do you feed the hippo ?? they need alot of veggies

 

[dicjones]

i feed them brine shrimp plus, formula two...both from ocean nutrition and I use a veggie clip for seaweed. I also have spirinula in pellet form but the fish don't seem to like it that way to much. he also grazes on algae on the live rock...at least when he was in the display aquarium.

 

[scuba_steve]

hummm not an expert on these type of issue due to ive never had such problems steve-s the advisor is soooooooooooo much better on these thing than me ! but is my thought that hole in the head is from a lack of the right diet !! hope he will chime in for you on this

what are you using for filtration ??

 

[dicjones]

In the quarantine tank(10 gallons) i have a mini penguin bio-wheel with a carbon filter pad. I also put some live rock in to kick start the biological filtration since it was somewhat of an emergency at the time. I do a 2 gallon water change every three days to maintain the water quality. I'm almost positive it has to do with whats going on in the quarantine tank. I've had him for about 5 months and he was in beautiful shape the whole time in the display aquarium(except when the marine velvet kicked in). I also read that lateral line disease can be caused by too much carbon, stress, poor water quality and extra electrical voltage in the tank. I just thought that maybe copper could be a cause and I just missed it somewhere. Maybe the copper has decreased the overall water quality of the quarantine tank in such a way that it causing this...even though ammonia and nitrite test fine. I'm only about 5 or 6 days away from replacing them all back into the display tank but every day his condition seems to get worse and I'm afraid it will be irreversible by the time i return him to it. Also another quick question here about the marine velvet. The recommendations that I read all call for the display tank running fish free for a month to let the parasite population crash. Is this ample time or should i push for longer. i would hate to return them to soon and have to start over again. I run an 18 watt coralife turbo-twist UV sterilizer...I turned the water flow way down for some time to help neutralize some of the free floating parasites.

Thanks scuba steve for all you time...great username by the way.

Alan

 

[scuba_steve]

yea the life cycle of ick is 1 month from egg to free floating !! so one month should be good !! also i would be doing more water changes in the qt than every 3 days ! better to have some aged salt water and change out a 1/3 every day if was me !! also in the future there are better ways to cure fish of ick over copper !! its called hyposalinity ! if ya want the link to it ill find it for you also running carbon in a qt isnt a good idea due to the carbon will absorb the copper and basically make in unaffective !

i like to know a bit more about your display tank and see if i can come up with any ideas as to why you are having issues !! it could be a simple thing !!

im glad to help along with so many on this site so keep any question coming

 

[steve-s]

If you are sure what the fish had was velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum), copper was the best option as hypo will have no real affect of marine velvet. If at all possible, 6 week is better when dealing with parasites. I would push for 4 weeks as the bare minimum. It's not just the main tank you need to be concerned about. Once the fish have gone through the optimal treatment time you should allow an additional 10-14 days in the QT after all meds are removed to be sure of no re-occurances.

Stress, environmental conditions and food types will definately have an effect on fish's health in general but Regals are what I would call the hypocondriacts of the marine hobby. If it's possible, they'll get it. Carbon as a cause of HLLE is a new one on me. I highly doubt that one.

The copper could have definately been a contributor if using an ionic copper. If this ever happens again I would definately suggest you use a chelated form of copper or better stil, Seachems Cupramine. If C. irritans (ich), follow scuba_steve's advice on the hyposalinity. It is the absolute least stressful treatment when done properly and will not affect the biofilter in the least.

If possible I would suggest trying to post a pic of the tang. Being you where treating for a parasite problem it is quite possible the tang is suffering from a secondary infection brought on by the actions of the parasite. That will be much easier to heal than the HLLE with simple antibiotics. If truely HLLE, you will need to get water quality up to optimal ASAP. Tangs in general do degrade quickly if so. Be sure you nix the meaty foods for the most part. Once in awhile is fine for the tang but it's diet should consist of vegetable matter high in spurlina algae. Nori is a great grazing food.

If it ends up being HLLE, I would also suggest getting some Selcon or Zoecon to soak foods in for the tang. It's very high in major vitamins and [acronym="Highly Unsaturated Fatty Acid"]HUFA[/acronym]'s which will help the healing process during and after water quality has been repaired. Beta Glucan is also a great self helper if you can find it.

How many fish are in the QT?

Cheers
Steve

 

[scuba_steve]

thanks steve always learn alot from you !! guess im soooo very lucky cause ive never had these type of issue in the many years ive kept fish knock on wood but good info to know !!

 

[packfan2204]

off the subject, but i noticed from your first post that you put a bicolor angel in copper, i thought you weren't supposed to run any angels or butterfly's in copper

 

[steve-s]

Depends on the type of copper, ionic being one of the worst. If treating for velvet you have little choice but if needed, using the least damaging for of copper would help such as chelates or Cupramine. Seachems Cupramine has proven time and time again to be effective in treating more sensitive fish including puffers.

Sorry to sound like an ad-vert but the product is very well put together.

Cheers
Steve

 

[packfan2204]

well that's what we use in the hospital tanks at the store, cupramine for the puffers, angels, and butterflys and such. Steve-s, you're talking about ionic copper, i thought it only came in chelated and non-chelated forms. What does it being ionic or not have to do with it?

 

[packfan2204]

well that's what we use in the hospital tanks at the store, cupramine for the puffers, angels, and butterflys and such. Steve-s, you're talking about ionic copper, i thought it only came in chelated and non-chelated forms. What does it being ionic or not have to do with it?

 

[dicjones]

Wow, got a lot of posts on this one. Must be a good topic. First would love to get a pic of the tang but the combination of a camera phone and the tangs incredible swimming speed makes it a lost cause. The Marine velvet came courtesy of a royal gramma I purchased through live aquaria. He perished from it before I knew what had hit. Marine velvet is very sneaky so I've found out. By the time I figured out what was up, the entire display tank was infected. It looked as if I was about to lose the clownfish also...but they pulled through and look great now. In regards to the bicolor and using copper with him...I guess I got lucky there. He seems oblivious to anything at all.

None of the fish have shown signs of any reoccurring velvet. They all eat eagerly and swim around pretty much the way they did in the display tank. Except of course for the tang...which drives me crazy cause i feel a real sense of responsibility to these animals and their well-being. Yeah, I understand that most people consider fish pretty much at the bottom of the pet "food chain", but they are still living creatures who deserve the best shot I can give them...anyway, sorry got off track there.

I currently soak the Formula two that I use in Boyd Enterprises Vita Chem...good product or no? I also add this directly to the water on some occasions.

All my fish are in quarantine at the moment as they were all infected to some degree or another. The 6 green chromis really didn't act much like they had anything wrong with them but I figured leaving them in the display tank would only give the marine velvet something to feed off of. Besides them there is the bicolor two false perculas and the tang. These are all young fish so none of them are large at all. The bicolor being the largest by far at just around 3 inches.

Scuba steve you wanted to know a little about my display tank so here it goes.
75 gallons FOWLR
Around 100 lbs of fiji rock...probably closer to 95 lbs
Geo-marine florida crushed coral substrate
2026 Eheim Professional II Canister filter(w/surface extractor on intake)
Prizm Deluxe Protein Skimmer
18 Watt Coralife turbo-twist UV Sterilizer
Two Zoo Med Power Sweep 226 powerheads
265 watt Coralife compact florescent lighting(actinic and 10,000K)
(set on 12 hour timer)
Reef Crystals for my salt
One scarlet skunk cleaner
Various crabs and snails...red hermit, orange tip, zebra, dwarf blue...nassarius,
cerith, turbo and black mexican
All my tests show 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 0 phosphate. The nitrate is around 20 ppm which isn't great but for a FOWLR I can live with that for now

I break down the canister filter once a week and rinse out the ceramic mechanical media and change the filter pads. I also pull out the powerheads about once every two weeks and take them apart and clean them out. I empty the collection cup for the protein skimmer about twice a week. I top off all evaporation everyday directly after work and I only use spring water for this and water changes.

I feel like I'm doing everything right or at the very least I'm working my butt off at it. In my defense though, except for the royal gramma bringing in the velvet, I NEVER had any problems. The fish i own have all survived since the day i brought them home...the royal gramma was my first loss.

Well, that completes the longest post ever! Thanks steve one and steve two for all your help...so glad I stumbled across this site!!

 

[scuba_steve]

the nitrate issue is prob from the canister (but if ya do clean it one time a week thats a huge help ) ! also the prizm is a tad small for that size tank and if you are to upgrade anything it would be that imo !! well it looks like your gonna be back on track here good luck !

 

[revhtree]

The LR should be plenty of filtration right? Thats what I was told about my 75g with LR. I have had no problems thus far with the levels. Is this true or not.

 

[scuba_steve]

yes very true !!

 

[steve-s]

well that's what we use in the hospital tanks at the store, cupramine for the puffers, angels, and butterflys and such. Steve-s, you're talking about ionic copper, i thought it only came in chelated and non-chelated forms. What does it being ionic or not have to do with it?

Ionic copper and chelated copper are completely different items and Cupramine is niether. Cupramine is a complex of organic copper amines unlike true ionic copper which is copper chloride/sulfate and chelates are bound and not freely ionic.

Being ionic has evrything to do with how the fish in question will hold up in an otherwise toxic environmet which fully ionic coppers are. If using a chelate or Cupramine which are considerabley less toxic to fish in general there is a much lower death rate due to treatment and little or no long term effects on the internal organs. Fully ionic copper will damage internal organs, destroy the biofilter and cause fish to lose their appetite.

Cheers
Steve