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Old 03-08-2005, 01:15 PM   #11
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You can't manipulate mother nature to any noticable degree either
With one possible exception mentioned only for technical reasons, i.e., you wouldn't really want to do this: life cycles of parasites can be impacted by TEMPERATURE. A frequently used technique in FRESHWATER ich treatment is elevated temperature, which shortens the life cycle of ich considerably. I'm not sure how high you'd want to raise the temp of your QT tank, though, especially if you are using a lower SG as an aid in there.
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 03-08-2005, 02:09 PM   #12
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I'm not sure how high you'd want to raise the temp of your QT tank, though, especially if you are using a lower SG as an aid in there.
Not recommended. Raises the stress level and would speed up the life cycle causing a faster demise of the fish.
Also not needed if a treatment plan is already implemented, not useful at all in treating SW fish.
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Old 03-08-2005, 05:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midiman
Quote:
You can't manipulate mother nature to any noticable degree either
With one possible exception mentioned only for technical reasons, i.e., you wouldn't really want to do this: life cycles of parasites can be impacted by TEMPERATURE. A frequently used technique in FRESHWATER ich treatment is elevated temperature, which shortens the life cycle of ich considerably. I'm not sure how high you'd want to raise the temp of your QT tank, though, especially if you are using a lower SG as an aid in there.
You left out this part....
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve-s
At least not without consequences.
As Quarryshark mentioned it speeds up the lifecycle of the parasite. The optimal temperature that Cryptocaryon multiplies is actually 86° so you are risking further problems. It does absolutely nothing to interupt the life cycle either. The rise in temperature also affects the ph of the fish's blood hampering it's natural (albeit limited) immune response against the parasite and leaving it more susceptible to secondary infection. It truely causes more problems than it solves in the grand scheme of things.

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Old 03-08-2005, 08:51 PM   #14
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Not true. It makes no difference in most cases what the species is
hey, altought steve strongly feels that what i stated is not true, i still believe that it is species specific, not because of the length of the pathogen life cycle, i mean each and every species and individual fish to some degree has a different level of disease tolerance. meaning i feel that certain species would be better to stay in QT longer so that they have ample time to buid up a stong immune system before you expose them to the stressful time when adding them into your main tank where it will more than likley fall victim to bulling by exsisting tank inhabitants.. you "could" put it sraight into your main tank after buying the fish from your LFS but the amount of stress put on the fish would be far less if you only had to have it out of a tank for a short period of time. EVERY species fish has a different disease risk thats why government bodies like in australia (AQIS) carry out disease risk assesments and from this determine how long the each fish species must stay under QT by law, im not sure if there is something similar in the US.

either way im still going to use my QT tank my fish deserve the best chance of survival.
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Old 03-08-2005, 09:14 PM   #15
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Reading the posts of datto and steve, I think that I understand the merit in both of their arguments. Because it is certainly true that the pathogen doesn't "know" which fish it's infecting, it cannot be said that the disease is "species specific" in that sense. However, is also true that different species have differing capacities to resist infection, meaning that the likelihood of becoming infected relates at least in part to the species.

So while the disease can POTENTIALLY affect all species (not species specific), it's ABILITY to infect depends at least in part on the species of host (depends on the species).

Peace in the valley?
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 03-08-2005, 09:56 PM   #16
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You have both misunderstood what I was trying to convey. I'm saying the minumum QT time should be no less than 4 weeks. If you feel there is merit in a longer QT time, I have absolutely no arguement against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by midiman
However, is also true that different species have differing capacities to resist infection, meaning that the likelihood of becoming infected relates at least in part to the species.
Please do not confuse "infest" with "infect". In regards to parasitic infestations, it's either there or it's not, no amount of stress or other influences outside of another fish addition will change that. So the species of teleost is irrelevent. Infections on the otherhand are a completely different matter altogether.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 03-08-2005, 10:02 PM   #17
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Well, I'm afraid it might all be a mute point. We went away this weekend and while we were gone the fish has seemed to take on some spotting. UGH! Just after we first got him he looked like he may have had a couple of spots on him. They were gone the next day and I attributed it to sediment (my yellow gets "sand" on him from time to time and I thought maybe dust from the rock that's in there with him) and now he looks really spotted. It has been a week since the last spots were seen. I'll start a new thread in the sick fish forum with pics.
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Old 03-08-2005, 10:15 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Phyl
I'll start a new thread in the sick fish forum with pics.


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Steve
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Old 03-08-2005, 10:27 PM   #19
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Please do not confuse "infest" with "infect". In regards to parasitic infestations, it's either there or it's not, no amount of stress or other influences outside of another fish addition will change that. So the species of teleost is irrelevent. Infections on the otherhand are a completely different matter altogether

I'm not clear what YOU are trying to say. Are you saying that ALL teleosts (i.e. "fish") are equally susceptible to infection by ich? If that is your point, why am I reading so many warnings against acquiring certain fish because they are more prone to ich?

My point (and I think datto's as well) is that the mere PRESENCE of pathogens in the system is not sufficient to guarantee that ALL fish will become infected. Some fish are more resistant than others. Are you saying that this is not the case?

Of course it is obvious that the life cycle of the pathogen ITSELF is independent of the fish species it infects, but the life cycle cannot be completed WITHOUT infection. I hesitate to speak for datto, but I think that's what he meant by ich being "species specific". It's equally obvious that the pathogen has to be PRESENT to cause infection, but if certain fish can resist better than others, why is it inaccurate to characterize infection as "species specific" in this more narrow sense? Certainly "species related" isn't far off the mark, is it?
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 03-08-2005, 10:55 PM   #20
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QT is not about if a certain fish is more resistant to an outbreak than another. The FACT remains that all fish are potential hosts for a parasitic outbreak and can bring such an outbreak into a system, be it from the wild or an already infected system and it can be a nightmare.
Just because a fish is more (or less) prone to becoming symptomatic is a mute point in the overall picture. The point is that one does not want to introduce such a outbreak into their display tank. Just because a certain fish is more resistant to a disease does not mean that other fish within a system cannot become symptomatic once a trophont is introduced. It is much easier to isolate each animal for an observation peroid and treat (if it becomes appropriate) in a controlled QT setting than it is to treat an entire system after the parasite is introduced in our closed systems.
Its easy to debate how one fish is more prone, or another is less prone to infestation, but once someone goes through the experience of treating an entire system for something like this basically because they lacked the desire to qt properly. Its amazing how they change their tune.
We have seen it many times and many of us have experienced it....no fun :| .
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