How quickly can I assume...???

[drewbles99]

... that a few white spots on a couple of my fish is ICH or another parasite? Should I begin to medicate immideately or wait and see if it's just lympho or something else that isin't harmful?

I have a medium Emporer with a tiny spot on his tail and a tiny blue tang with a spot or two that almost look like dimples. He is so small I can barely see what is on him.

I am running a UV sterilizer so perhaps that will keep things from getting out of hand to quickly.

On a separate note, I have succesfully used NO-ICH to completely eradicate a breakout in 2 weeks in the past.

All my water tests are great, but the tap water is a bit harsh and full of phosphates here in Chicago.

I don't have money or room for a QT tank, so that suggestion won't be helpful

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the subject.

 

[clowninround]

Emporer Angelfish? and...a blue tang? I lost those exact fish with what started out with those symptoms and ended up NOT being ich. Quarryshark really helped me out figuring out what to do and I was able to save the others. If it were me, I would treat them since they are showing signs, but keep a real close eye on them, you never know, it could be something besides ich. Mine got real bad real fast. Without a QT, you are limited on the medications you can use. Are they showing any other symptoms?

 

[quarryshark]

QT, I'm sorry to say is the answer if they have ich. If its in your main, it will not go away without a lack of fish hosts for at least a 4-6 week period. This allows the parasite to go through its life cycle and die off with no fish to host it. Treating the main is a bad idea. If the medicine is strong enough to work, it will kill off thing that you don't want to kill like your inverts, nitrifying bacteria, etc. Other med they claim are "reef or invert safe" simply do not work. This is documented over and over. Ich may appear to go away, only to come back twofold.
Now since you did not qt the fish, there is a strong possibity that is is a parasite. I would watch them closely for any signs. These would be salt grain looking spots, rapid gilling, refusal to eat, cloudy eyes, hanging in one spot, etc.
The advisors wrote an excellent article on parasites at the top of this catagory, you may want to check it out.
Good luck!!
clowninround, how are your guys doing?

 

[clowninround]

They are doing really good...though they both seem to be tired of the 20 gallon . The 150 is set up and it is bueatiful...my husband however is VERY impatient to put fish in...I am getting that way myself . But if this has taught me anything, QT is the most important part of adding fish into a tank!!! Did you get the pic I sent of the 150?

 

[quarryshark]

That was from you? Wasn't sure. It looks great!! You should have a blast with that. Gives you so many more options, congrats!!

 

[drewbles99]

update...

The fish show no signs of being sick. They continue to have about 1-2 small white spots each. The rest of the tank is symptom free. Since they are small and appear to be perfectly round I don't think it's lympho. The fish are acting and eating normally and appear to be thriving. Guess I will take a wait and see stance.

Separately, I see that you don't believe NO-ICH can work. I am not sure what to say about your skepticism except that it worked perfectly for me the one time I used it. It did kill my starfish, but it didnt hurt any of my crabs or shrimp. I dont have a reef so I dont know about "real" inverts like corals and the like.

Just my 2 cents on NO-ICH.

 

[clowninround]

How long ago did you treat for ich last time?

 

[drewbles99]

2 weeks

The treatment was a 2 week treatment and then i let the tank sit for another 2 weeks.

 

[clowninround]

Yes, but I was wondering how long ago it had been since you treated the tank. The reason I ask is that like Quarryshark said, the parasite may have never left the tank. The symptoms on the fish may have dissappeared, but the parasite may have still been in the tank to reappear at a later time. However, if the treatment was done a long time ago, maybe that is not the case. How are the fish doing now?

 

[drewbles99]

Today the fish look great. The Emporer now only has 1 spot and the blue tang is looking symptom free as well.

I had let the tank sit for about 5 weeks total since the parasites appeared to be gone.

 

[clowninround]

Thats great, just keep watching them

 

[drewbles99]

well so much for the good news...

Got home tonight to find a full outbreak on the blue tang of small white spots...

Emporer has several spots on his fins and my queen angel now has a few spots on her fins as well.

I am starting a course of NO-ICH at 2ozs per 25 gallons.

all of my fish are behaving normally and eating at this point. No scratching or eradic swimming or anything out of the ordinary besides the white spots...

I am guessing the 2 angels will not survive this.. I am also guessing my blue tang willl not make it...

but my yellow tang, 6 line wrasse, blue damsel and picasso will all be fine I am sure.

 

[clowninround]

I know the feeling, thats exactly how it happened to me. Got home from a BBQ and found my Angel at the bottom of the tank, with heavy gilling...stuck to a filter...the tang had white spots and both had pieces missing from there fins. the other two seemed fine at first...then my clown showed symptoms too. Turned out to be brooklynella. It's really heartbreaking. Listen, I know you say you can't afford a QT tank, but you have no idea how much money it will save you in the long run. It sounds like ich to me and I have been told many many times about the success with copper...you might be able to save them! Quarryshark uses Cupramine with a seachem copper test. He has had success with it from what I understand...

 

[quarryshark]

Yup, it works great. Mine was a velvet outbreak, but the results are the same.

 

[drewbles99]

I was always under the impression that as soon as you see any parasites that it is presumed the entire tank is infected? I suppose you mean I should setup a QT tank for fish that I bring home and keep them in it before adding them to the main tank?

How big should a QT tank be? I have fish that are 5-8 inches so I can't just get a 10 gallon I dont think. Does a QT tank require normal cycling? Isin't it super stressful on the fish to keep moving too?

 

[quarryshark]

You have a 55? Most of your fish are going to outgrow that in a hurry. Both of you Angels can reach a foot in length, your Yellow and Blue tank can get 8"+ and the Trigger will get huge. This would be a bit much for my tank. Plus as the Angels get bigger, they will probably fight.
I hope you plan an upgrade for the near future, the bioload will be impossible is a 55 and as the fish mature, the agression will increase.
That aside, for this group you would probably need "at least" a 30 gallon qt tank. You could partially use water from your system and the other part fresh mix. You are going to treat with meds or hypo anyway, so any parasites in the water would be killed. There really isn't time for normal cycling and med will kill off the bacteria anyway. You would keep the ammonia and nitrite down with daily water changes.
Yes the entire tank is infected and a fishless (inverts can stay) period of 4-6 weeks with elevated temp will kill the parasites off.
It is stressful to constantly move fish, but ich will eventually kill them unless you do.
It's obviously your call, but I would condsider trading in a few of these fish, unless you have plans for a bigger system.
Not trying to give you a hard time, just stating facts and trying to help .
Advisors feel free to chime in with opinions.

 

[drewbles99]

I don't disagree with you about these fish being to large for a 55 down the line. However, in my experience, it takes fish a lot longer to grow then most people seem to think.

I do have plans to get a larger tank about a year from now, and I think things will work out. I just hope these fish survive the current epidemic.

Update: Day 2 of NO-ICH and most of the parasites have dissappeared from naked eye view. All of the fish are eating everything I put in the tank... A few white spots here and there on the blue tang's body and the angels fins.

 

[drewbles99]

Update...

Today was the second day of dosing with NO-ICH and I wanted to report that all of the fish are eating ravenously. Flake, Frozen, plankton, pellets, it doesn't matter. They all look good expcept for a few white sposts on fins and the BVlue tang's body. No scratching, no odd behavior.

It's a good day for the tank so I'm going o enjoy it as much as I can.

PS- Inverts appear to be unaffected.

 

[luntiz]

Keep us updated.

 

[drewbles99]

Update: Yesterday was day 7 of my No-Ich treatment. I added another 4 oz and observed the tank. There are virtually no signs of infection at this point. Perhaps a few spots on a few of the fishes fins, but that's about it. All of the fish are feeding ravenously. I love to see even the pickiest eaters like the Emporer charge down some spirulina flakes, it just warms my heart. Ther eare no other signs of infection, as in no scratching, no rapid breathing, no fin rot, no discoloration. I must say that I am having a hard time believing that there are people that don't like no-ich at this point. It will be interesting to see how the tank responds after a few weeks without the treatment. I have 2 more doses over the next 7 days to administer.