Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Saltwater and Reef > Saltwater & Reef - Sick Fish or Coral
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 03-09-2005, 02:26 AM   #21
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 17
I've been under the impression that the life cycle of the parasite necessitates a longer treatment -- more like three weeks plus. You're saying no?

When we think of a treatment period, does the clock start when the last spot clears up, or when the copper reaches a therapeutic level?
__________________

__________________
cpurick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 12:14 PM   #22
steve-s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpurick
I've been under the impression that the life cycle of the parasite necessitates a longer treatment -- more like three weeks plus. You're saying no?
It depends on the treatment being used. Copper targets the free swimming theront stage of the fish. So when it leaves the fish to reproduce or after reproducing to infest a fish, it is killed off by the copper. Copper has no affect on the tomont or trophont stages. It would be impossible for the parasite to survive as long as the treatment level is maintained properly. With ionic coppers, that's why it's so important to test twice daily. It is affected by so many things that can reduce the concentrations allowing the problem to persist.

Quote:
When we think of a treatment period, does the clock start when the last spot clears up, or when the copper reaches a therapeutic level?
In this case, it's when the copper reach's the correct level and is maintained there. If you where treating with hyposalinity, it would be after the last spot was seen on the fish. Hypo is a completely different target treatment though. It kills the tomont stage.

Cheers
Steve
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 01:19 PM   #23
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 17
So you're saying copper kills both the theront and the protomont stages.

Bartelme says "after two weeks in the tomont stage the number of theronts produced and their ability to infect are greatly reduced (Colorni, 1992)." You think this reduction is akin to eradication?

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I was seeing spots about 4 days after completing one treatment cycle. I kept a constant level for at least 17 days, so we're assuming the level was too low, and not that the course of treatment was too short.

Obviously I don't want to remove the copper too early and risk a third outbreak...

BTW, I really appreciate all the sage advice.

Rick
__________________
cpurick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 06:18 PM   #24
steve-s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpurick
So you're saying copper kills both the theront and the protomont stages.

Bartelme says "after two weeks in the tomont stage the number of theronts produced and their ability to infect are greatly reduced (Colorni, 1992)." You think this reduction is akin to eradication?
That part of the article you are refering to is the basic life cycle, not in relation to an actual treatment.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini2.htm

But in answer to your question yes. The tomont and trophont are unaffected by copper meds. Reduction is not akin to erradication.

Quote:
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I was seeing spots about 4 days after completing one treatment cycle. I kept a constant level for at least 17 days, so we're assuming the level was too low, and not that the course of treatment was too short.

Obviously I don't want to remove the copper too early and risk a third outbreak...
By our correspondance thus far, your first round of treatment (17 days) was not correctly monitored 2x daily for copper concentrations and not able to correctly verify the level when tested?

The only conclusion I would be able to offer is either the levels where too low and the parsite survived or it's not C. irritans. If the dosage was maintained @ 0.20+ for a minimum of 14 days, it would not have survived.

Cheers
Steve
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 06:47 PM   #25
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve-s
By our correspondance thus far, your first round of treatment (17 days) was not correctly monitored 2x daily for copper concentrations and not able to correctly verify the level when tested?
The copper was well monitored and never dropped below .15ppm per a test kit which I now suspect is faulty. I lengthened the test interval only after the copper level stabilized -- the less-frequent tests consistently indicated .15-.3ppm on the Marine Enterprises Intl kit. Even after a healthy water change and reintroducing copper, that kit still indicated .15ppm when the ich returned -- a level that should be ich-free.

The Salifert kit now reads a little under .25ppm. The next lower color standard is .1, which is too low to be effective, so I really can't lower it any further. Meanwhile, the original kit now indicates about .5ppm -- which means it may read twice as high as the actual copper level.

If you say two weeks at an honest .2+ ppm is sufficient to kill all the parasites, then I'll put the carbon back in on 3/19 -- the fifteenth day after I first eclipsed .25 on the Salifert kit.
__________________
cpurick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 07:02 PM   #26
steve-s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpurick
The copper was well monitored and never dropped below .15ppm per a test kit which I now suspect is faulty.
This is what leads me to believe the first treatment was not effective and the treatment level not properly maintained. Please undertsand I am not trying to lay blame (or offend for that matter), simpley offer a possible explaination as to why the return of the parasite after 17 days. Whether that be the test kit used, the possible sorbtion of the copper by the CC in the filter or any other number of variables that may or may not have been forseen at the time.

Quote:
If you say two weeks at an honest .2+ ppm is sufficient to kill all the parasites, then I'll put the carbon back in on 3/19 -- the fifteenth day after I first eclipsed .25 on the Salifert kit.
If maintained at least to the 0.20 (0.25 due to the est kit), you will be safe with removing the copper after 2 weeks from when the treatment level was reached and verified correctly.

Cheers
Steve
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 09:30 PM   #27
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 17
Well, I came home tonight and there are two spots on the Gramma. Salifert kit says the copper's about .25ppm -- way darker than .1ppm on the test. I'm thinking I hit peak copper on Friday, when it was definitely darker than .25ppm and the fish were visibly sick.

I did three small water changes with untreated water, deliberately lowering the copper to almost .25ppm -- but not any lower.

Is it a problem if I see a couple of spots now?

I'm very troubled that these test kits are so limited, and we're dealing with a treatment that's only slightly less toxic to my fish than it is to the parasite. I think I have a strain of "super-ich."
__________________
cpurick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 09:47 PM   #28
steve-s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpurick
I did three small water changes with untreated water, deliberately lowering the copper to almost .25ppm -- but not any lower.
Be sure the unmedicated water changes are not skewing your treatment levels. Also be sure that it's RO water and no water conditioners either. Ionic coppers are usually much harder to maintain so re-dosing is often required as is multiple daily testing.

Quote:
Is it a problem if I see a couple of spots now?
Not if you consider it's only been a few days since you re-instared the treatment. As I said the copper will only affect the free swimming stage not while on the fish or encysting. You should see no additional spots by Monday at the latest. It can normally take anywhere from 3-5 dyas before spots become visible and fall off the fish. Treatment peak being reached on Friday so it's been 5 full days.

Quote:
I'm very troubled that these test kits are so limited, and we're dealing with a treatment that's only slightly less toxic to my fish than it is to the parasite. I think I have a strain of "super-ich."
LOL... my turn to be a dead horse. It's one of the main reasons Cupramine and it's partnered test kit come so highly recommended. It's treatment level is easily achieved and maintained. The test kit will not read falsely and is much more accurate. The fish will also have a much less stressful time of it as it is very well tolerated by the most sensitive of teleost species.

Cheers
Steve
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2005, 11:36 PM   #29
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 17
Well, I added five drops of copper to the tank. I estimate that couldn't raise my tank more than .02-.03ppm at the most. The test does not show any appreciable change. Since I'm only trying to maintain the copper, and not trying to actually raise it, I won't add any more.
__________________
cpurick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2005, 10:44 PM   #30
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 17
Update--

Well, the tang looks great tonight. Almost no clamping, color's a little on the pale side, but streaks all gone.

Unfortunately there was more ich on the gramma this morning -- at least twice as much as he had on Wednesday. I added ten drops of copper this morning. That should raise the total by about .03ppm (.15ppm/gallon per drop, according to the label.)

Marine Enterprises kit indicating .5ppm; Salifert just over .25ppm

Looks like the firefish go into hiding when the level gets high enough. Outbreaks seem to occur right after the firefish come out and start schooling together. I'm going to try watching for the firefish as an indicator that Cu may be getting too low.
__________________

__________________
cpurick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ich, test, test kits

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
whats a copper test for? tropicfishman Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 8 03-06-2007 03:26 PM
Chemical Test Strips VS. Test Kits thetmaxx General Hardware/Equipment Discussion 5 03-16-2006 10:54 AM
treating with copper to fight ich KevyMv Saltwater & Reef - Sick Fish or Coral 1 02-21-2006 08:42 PM
Test kits vs. test strips AquaBear Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 7 06-17-2004 11:01 PM
Test strips or liquid test kits? yellowjacket171 Freshwater & Brackish - Getting Started 6 08-28-2003 04:12 PM







» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.