Ich debate

[Sadielynn]

Ok rather than having a post hijacked ... I thought maybe we could share some thoughts on ich . How to rid it and causes of it

 

[roka64]

LOL, nice job! Do you mind if you bring in your past post? I think it will add a lot of relevance/experience?

 

[Sadielynn]

go for it

 

[roka64]

My reasons to believe this is that stuff can stay dormant for so long.... That in and of itself does not mean it to be fact.... But I have also do the qt thing and gone fallow for 12 weeks (no corals at all it was in the beginning of our system)placed our clowns in qt for that time treated with garlic , hypo , the display we increased temp to 82* and hypO treated it as well since it was only live rock and sand. Since the parasites can not live in hypO then it should kill them right? Well we placed them into the system and the clowns developed ich .... So where it came from is any ones guess because nothing was added ... So I do believe it is in every system , but because it is opportunistic and the clowns were healthy due to the stuffing their faces they fought it off . And survived .... they have not had it since....

This is from a previous post.
I do find this interesting. I can't argue with direct experience like that, other than, is it possible the dormant tomites came in on inverts/coral/LR/sand?

 

[alaher2]

According to my LFS owner, who has been in the hobby for the past 15yrs, he claims that the Ich parasites can be found in any tank and will always be there. Going fallow will limit the amount of parasites but they still can be found within the substrate and the only way to properly fight the parasites is by maintaining healthy water parameters and keeping the stress level of the fish as low as possible, so the fish themselves can battle the parasites properly. I just thought I would add his two cents into the debate, cause I am very interested myself.

 

[Sadielynn]

Some fish are naturally better at fighting it off. Here is what we did.
Get some fresh garlic, and selcon..
Next take one clove of garlic crush it ....the active ingredient is allicin.This stimulates their eating reponse ... the selcon boosts immunity ...take some mysis soak for 5-15 minutes feed your tank dont worry about the garlic getting in this wll get them to eat and beable to naturally fight off ich....
For a QT container you could use a tote bin so long as you dont add ANY meds to it ..
I am of the opinion that ich is present in all systems... it is just the fishes ability to fight it off. The only way to say that there is no ich is that every thing from fish to LR and corals are QT ....

I am of the opinion that ich is present in all systems.

I know there is speculation on this, but if the tank goes fallow for 8 weeks and the ich starves/dies, where would the new ich come from?

My reasons to believe this is that stuff can stay dormant for so long.... That in and of itself does not mean it to be fact.... But I have also done the qt thing and gone fallow for 12 weeks (no corals at all it was in the beginning of our system)placed our clowns in qt for that time treated with garlic , hypo , the display we increased temp to 82* and hypO treated it as well since it was only live rock and sand. Since the parasites can not live in hypO then it should kill them right? Well we placed them into the system and the clowns developed ich .... So where it came from is any ones guess because nothing was added ... So I do believe it is in every system , but because it is opportunistic and the clowns were healthy due to the stuffing their faces they fought it off . And survived .... they have not had it since....

 

[Fluff]

According to my LFS owner, who has been in the hobby for the past 15yrs, he claims that the Ich parasites can be found in any tank and will always be there. Going fallow will limit the amount of parasites but they still can be found within the substrate and the only way to properly fight the parasites is by maintaining healthy water parameters and keeping the stress level of the fish as low as possible, so the fish themselves can battle the parasites properly. I just thought I would add his two cents into the debate, cause I am very interested myself.

This I would believe.

My thing is, the parasites didn't read the book. Everyone is gonna have "their own experiences" and there are gonna be alot of them that seem really out there but they will swear up and down that it worked. I believe in tried and true methods that have been around for years. You can't argue with that kind of success. Or I can't anyway so I'll stick with what has worked over and over again for many many people. Not saying a miracle can't happen or that I don't believe it happened but, one persons success doesn't spell success for everyone. I guess I'm just old school and stuck in my ways. I don't believe in snake oil treatments or quick fixes. I just won't gamble with someones livestock except with something that has been repeatedly successful. Perhaps ya'll can change my mind but I doubt it.

 

[roka64]

Ok, I just got this book called:
Handbook of fish disease by Dieter Untergasser.
This is what he says about ICH:
The adult will burrow in between the epidermis and dermis, constantly turning, living off of the fish's destroyed skin cells and body fluid. While doing this, they form a protective covering. Once grown the parasite will let go of the host and look for a quiet spot to reproduce. Once it finds a place it will enclose it self in a viscous capsule. Once in this stage, it will divide into up to 1000 "swarmer cells". This process can take anywhere from 8-48 hours, depending on water temp. After they hatch, they will actively search for a host, if none are found within 48 hours they will die. If one finds a host, it will burrow into the epidermis and dermis and live for 10-20 days. The time it takes for it to grow depends on water temp and the fish's resistance.
If attacking for the first time, they need a longer period to grow.
If the hosting fish dies, they will leave the corpse with in a few hours. The smallest ones go through conjugation and form a "permanent or resting stage", that is viable for a few weeks.

And here is the whole point of, "Is ich already present in every tank?"

Once an infected fish has fought off the parasite, the fish is "to a certain extent immune". The ich will form a "latent stage" in safe places like gills or fins. Moving, stress or poor water qualities will reactivate the "latent stage" and possibly attack the same or new fish.

Whew, thank goodness for spell checker!

 

[Sadielynn]

but now here is the thing or the debate .
IF you go through the fallow stage. And a fish does not have it in QT where is it hiding ?

If the hosting fish dies, they will leave the corpse with in a few hours. The smallest ones go through conjugation and form a "permanent or resting stage", that is viable for a few weeks.

While in qt the fish may still host a parasite because once there is a host they can live ...When said fish is in qt for a period and moved this becomes stressfull and the ever present ich presents itself as present...
So yes while QT is important , it is possible to still have it , because of the cycle . It lives , hosts then drops breeds and reinfects . 1 vicious cycle after the next

 

[roka64]

I agree, so, this makes me think ich is introduced to our tanks via active parasites or in the "latent stage" in the animal's gills or fins. There is no time interval on the "latent stage" that I could find. I think the move or the stress of a new environment can reactivate the "latent stage", even if hypo was done correctly. So if a fish has the "latent stage" and is QT'ed, and you move it to the new tank and he fits in and is happy, you may never see ich or know it is even there....

 

[Sadielynn]

I agree, so, this makes me think ich is introduced to our tanks via active parasites or in the "latent stage" in the animal's gills or fins. There is no time interval on the "latent stage" that I could find. I think the move or the stress of a new environment can reactivate the "latent stage", even if hypo was done correctly. So if a fish has the "latent stage" and is QT'ed, and you move it to the new tank and he fits in and is happy, you may never see ich or know it is even there....

BINGO
Please add this as a note this does not mean that you should skip QT

 

[roka64]

Please add this as a note this does not mean that you should skip QT

I second that!!!

 

[alaher2]

Please add this as a note this does not mean that you should skip QT

I second that!!!

I will third that, QT is a very important step and shouldn't be skipped.

 

[quixand]

To go along with this, my vet told me last night ( who also as I found out, is the city aquarium vet ) told me anyone who DOESN'T QT a new fish for 30 days before introducing it into your main tank is wrong, and doesn't know what he/she is doing. LOL

So take it from a vet, QT your fish for 30 days!