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Old 10-11-2005, 07:41 PM   #1
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ich in my tank with fish and live rock

1. How long have you had the fish?

--i had the fish for about 6 weeks

Do you know if it was wild caught, or tank raised?

-- both

2. How long has the fish been in the tank?

-- 6 weeks

What are the tank mates?

-- 1 blue tang
1 yellow tang
1 fire shrimp
1 star fish
4 clowns

Any aggression?

-- no

3. Is the fish eating?

-- yes

If so what does it eat?

-- pellets and mysis

4.What are the water parameters?

5.pH, ammonia, 8.0 and unknown

6.nitrite, nitrate, .5 and 40

7.SPG? (actual numbers please: posting high, average or normal is not helpful) What saltwater test kit are you using?
-- 1.023


5.Is the fish showing any physical signs of disease, grain of salt size spots, discoloration, ragged fins, misting or spots on the fins, cuts, cloudy eyes, etc?

-- ...just white spots

6.Is the fish "flashing" (scratching or rubbing on rocks, decorations or substrate)?

-- yes ,.. all of the above

7.How is the fish acting? Is it swimming around, or just hovering in one spot or corner of the tank?

-- swimming around

8.Did you use quarantine?

-- nope,. it was fine until i got the blue tang from another store !

If so for how long and did you have a need to treat for any ailments? Is it in qt now?

Are you currently treating with any medication(s)?

-- yes its in qt with copper at the local fish store

9.Describe in detail how the fish was acclimated.

-- float the bag for 25 minutes then release,..

10.What size system? What type of filtration do you use? Do you have any live rock or sand?

-- 125 gallons,.. wet dry with uv lights,.. yes i have live rock. crushed coral

11.Do you use any additives? Have you used any sort of meds in the main tank?

-- i used no ich with no results,...this stressed out the live rock


all this said,.. i have ich and it started with when i went to a different store other
than the one i always go to and got a blue tang. now i know that i have to qt if i buy from another store other than the one i go to where i know he medicates his tanks.

... so i get ich and i take all the blame for it,... i call the store where i have been dealing with for 10 years and tell him my problem. he tells me to get a qt tank to avoid this again. the problem with that is that i have no room for another tank.

so he tells me to bring them in and he will medicate them for me for free,..
nice guy. he tells me he willl hold them for 14 days and that should be good to take them back home and i should be fine. so 17 days go by and i bring them home on Oct 6, 2005. 2 days later i see ich. i take them back to the store and he tells me not to worry that we should wait 24 days this time around.


my question is how long should i have waited ?

what should be my next step if this does not work again ?

what if i get all my live rock and put it in a tupperware with
water pump moving the water hit it with one of my metal halides
bring the fish back home and treat it with copper for 3 to 4 weeks,..
get one of those pads that remove copper, then put all my 60 pounds
of live rock back in ?

the question is,.. do these copper removing pads really work or will i kill
all my live rock when i put them back in ?

any ideas and advice would be helpful

many thanks in advance

Remo

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Old 10-11-2005, 09:36 PM   #2
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The problem is that you never got rid of the ich from the ST. As long as there's fish in the ST, there will be ich. You ST must be fallow for at least six weeks to break the life cycle. Copper and hyposalanity are the only truely proven methods of defeating ich. If there's no room for a QT, then you're really in for a lot of headaches. Good luck.
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Old 10-12-2005, 01:44 AM   #3
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Just a two cents to throw in here. A friend of mine recently had an ich problem in her saltwater tank. Now being the freshwater guy that I am, I mentioned that heat can kill ich. Also warning that this was in freshwater, not saltwater. Of course it was too late and all she heard was heat kills ich. By the time I had done a bit of research for saltwater ich, and found out heat is DANGEROUS to invertabrates and corals.

By the way I saw a few good comments about this stuff, but haven't tried it myself.
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_....asp?ast=&key=

There is an upside to the story though. After a week and a half of 88 degree water, all the ich was gone. All the corals and fish were still alive. And the red velvet clam that was suspected of bringing in the ich to begin with is also alive and healthy.

I'd say make sure of the habitats of your corals and fish, then decide if it's a possibility to treat your tank yourself. One way or another, the tank is going to have to be rid of the parasites before you'll have healthy happy fish.
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Old 10-12-2005, 05:43 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyrmir
There is an upside to the story though. After a week and a half of 88 degree water, all the ich was gone. All the corals and fish were still alive. And the red velvet clam that was suspected of bringing in the ich to begin with is also alive and healthy
Your friend is very lucky. Increased temperatures serve no purpose in parasite control. I seriously doubt the diagnosis was correct either. The temps required to kill C. irritans are well above 90°. The optimum reproductive temp is actually 86°. In most all cases the elevation of the temp increases the rate of infestation in the fish to unmanagable levels, especially without proper treatment. As well it lowers the pH of the fish's blood reducing it's immune capabilities. I'm seriously suprised there where no casualties from that alone.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 10-12-2005, 08:26 PM   #5
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Yeah I was suprised to see the fish living myself. The heat works like a charm in freshwater tanks, but the saltwater version of the parasite seems to be a whole different critter. For one salt also kills the freshwater version.

As for heat not being a method of parasite control though, it's actually a huge form of control. It's why warm blooded creatures have a fever reaction. The only question is if the creatures involved have a higher temperature tolerance than the parasite. With a lot of marine life, that's questionable, but some can handle higher temperatures for limited periods of time. I've stood in tidal pools that were over 90 degrees and yet teaming with fish, crabs and other life. So it's mainly a question of species and tolerance of the animals.

--
For a main aquarium Fish-Only tank with the fish removed, or a reef system with the inverts and corals removed as well, speed up the completion of the parasites life cycle by raising the main aquarium temperature to 85° F to 90° F. Oodinium cysts and dinospores, or Cryptocaryon cysts and tomites, can be eliminated from an aquarium in two weeks, three for sure, if the fish hosts are removed and the tank temperature is elevated. As long as the fish don't carry the parasite back into the aquarium with them when they are returned after treatment in the QT, the infestation can be cured.
--

Reference: The Marine Aquarium Handbook - Beginner to Breeder, by Martin A. Moe, Jr.
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Old 10-12-2005, 10:34 PM   #6
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It also lowers the waters' capability to hold dissolved oxygen. It is yet another myth brought over from the FW side. Definitely not advisable.

KG
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Old 10-13-2005, 08:01 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Skyrmir
As for heat not being a method of parasite control though, it's actually a huge form of control. It's why warm blooded creatures have a fever reaction. The only question is if the creatures involved have a higher temperature tolerance than the parasite. With a lot of marine life, that's questionable, but some can handle higher temperatures for limited periods of time. I've stood in tidal pools that were over 90 degrees and yet teaming with fish, crabs and other life. So it's mainly a question of species and tolerance of the animals.
Actually no so. The tidal pools you speak of are just that, affected by the comings and goings of the tide. Their "entrapment" if you will is neither long lived or permanent. Any treatment concerning temp manipulation would be. You are right in the regard it depends on the tolerance but in most case studies, the host dies before the parasite.


Quote:
--
For a main aquarium Fish-Only tank with the fish removed, or a reef system with the inverts and corals removed as well, speed up the completion of the parasites life cycle by raising the main aquarium temperature to 85° F to 90° F. Oodinium cysts and dinospores, or Cryptocaryon cysts and tomites, can be eliminated from an aquarium in two weeks, three for sure, if the fish hosts are removed and the tank temperature is elevated. As long as the fish don't carry the parasite back into the aquarium with them when they are returned after treatment in the QT, the infestation can be cured.
--

Reference: The Marine Aquarium Handbook - Beginner to Breeder, by Martin A. Moe, Jr.
Sorry, don't buy it for a second. In the end you have accomplished nothing more than a normal fallow of 6-8 weeks except up the time frame and quite possibley kill the biofilter. Whatever the reproductive cyst, the items you remove (rock, inverts, coral et al) will carry them just as equally as what's left behind in the tank . They would need to be fallowed for the same 6-8 weeks so in the end, you've accomplished nothing advantageous except a lot of extra work and possible damaged corals/inverts..

Cheers
Steve
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