Ich treatment questions

[BrendanH]

Hi All,
My newly-acquired Kole Tang has come out with a lot of spots and rapid breathing so I strongly suspect it is ich (thank God for quarantine tanks !!! ). Last night when I noticed the problem I got some advice from my LFS which may or may not be the best. The result was I treated the QT with Greenex. Since then I have been reading about Hyposalininity and Copper treatments. A lot of people here favour hypo as the sole course of treatment if my understanding of other topics is correct, yet I have also been reading some advice from Bob Fenner in which he recommends Copper treatment in tandem with a lowered salinity ( maybe 1.016 ). So what do you guys recommend I do ? FYI - the QT is pretty bare with just some inert deco in there such as a fake plant and an ornament to provide hiding places. I'm running some live sand in a filter bag in the AquaClear Mini filter for bio.

So here are some specific questions :

1. Hypo or Copper ? (or both ??)
2. If Copper should I strip the greenex meds with carbon ? (I have an activated carbon cartridge that came with the AquaClear mini filter - how long would it take to strip all the greenex ?
3. Also if Copper, I know that will kill the bacteria in the live sand so I have read that I would need to frequently do water changes to control the ammonia/nitrite buildup. How much and how often would I need to change ?
4. How long do I treat (again I've seen many differening opinions on this).

Thanks a lot for your help folks ! Let's hope the Tang makes it ....

Brendan.

 

[reefrunner69]

1. Hypo or Copper ? (or both ??)

Hypo, unless the kole is pretty far gone, it is less stressful than copper treatments an won't effect your biological filter.

4. How long do I treat (again I've seen many differening opinions on this).

Hyposalinity, that link should have everything you need to know about hyposalinity Your looking at a minimum of 3 weeks with either treatment, 4 is better.

 

[BrendanH]

Thanks Kevin - as regards determing how far gone the Tang is, here is his current behaviour (as of last night) : He has quite a lot of spots and is breathing fast. I observed him in the LFS the day I took him and saw no abnormal behaviour. He was swimming around and feeding off the rock in the tank. That was 2 days ago. Now he is not feeding (I have tried Formula 2 flakes ) and does not explore much around the tank. Instead he spends most of his time in his hiding spot at the bottom of the tank.

What do you think ?

 

[reefrunner69]

It is very difficult to assess the fish without seeng it. If you are concerned that it is going downhill fast, you might start the copper treatment, it tends to work a little faster than hypo, although that might be a myth.

 

[BrendanH]

Fair enough - thanks again. I'll give the hypo a shot and monitor closely. Kudos !!

 

[BrendanH]

Sorry - one more question. When lowering the SG it is possible that the PH will drop right ? Or will the live sand in the filter act as a buffer ? From the Hypo article :

"If the pH starts to drop, water should be changed or buffer very carefully added to the system. If the fish are sick, too rapid changes in pH will not be beneficial. "

I assume the water change plan will be after the SG of 1.010 is reached and then I mix new SW at 1.010 ? What would you recommend as a buffer that can be easily added to the tank to bring the PH back up ?

thanks ......
Brendan (The world's newest QT fan !! )

 

[reefrunner69]

I assume the water change plan will be after the SG of 1.010 is reached and then I mix new SW at 1.010 ?

Yes and it should be 1.009. 12ppt and a refractometer is recommended

As for the buffer, I would use something like reef builder by seachem or kents superbuffer dkh or a homemade mix of baking soda and washing soda. There are instructions for it around here somewhere, but it's 6 parts arm and hammer baking soda to 1 part arm and hammer washing soda mixed dry.

 

[reefrunner69]

Had to look up the exact directions.

Mix # 1

Ingredients:

Baking soda

Equipment:

oven
baking sheet
aluminum foil


Directions:

Preheat oven for 400F. Cover baking sheet with aluminum foil. Cover foil with baking soda (don't use all of it), spread the baking soda around, since it must have contact with the air. Bake at 400F for 1 hour, or until lumpy and awful tasting (a lot of my other recipes turn out this way). Mix 1 part of baked baking soda with 5 parts regular baking soda (some people use 6 parts regular baking soda). Store in a dry container.


Be sure clumps are broken and mixture is well mixed before adding this to the aquarium, be sure everything dissolves (baking soda dissolves much easier than baked backing soda). Also, be sure to test pH and Alk


Mix #2

6 parts Arm & Hammer Baking Soda and 1 part Arm & Hammer Washing soda. Mix well and add one table spoon of the mix to RO, RO/DI or Distilled water per 25 gal of tank water to raise DKH 1.0. Again always check pH and Alk

 

[BrendanH]

Great - thanks !

The good news is for what it's worth the Greenex may have helped some. There are less spots on the Tang now and he's swimming around a little more. I'm still going for the hypo approach though of course.

 

[graz3]

Just use the greenex as prescibed on the container and your problem will go away in a few days without harming any inverts. Raise your temp up to 82 f.

 

[BrendanH]

Well - I've been pursuing the hypo treatment and I should have the QT down to 1.009 by tomorrow morning. I wonder if it's worthwhile also continuing with the Greenex at the same time ? If I were to do so the tank would be due for another dose this evening.

One quick question on the hypo treatment : I noticed last night that my PH had dropped below 8.0 so I added the presribed amount of Kent Marine PH buffer and will test again tonight. My question :

Should I be adding the buffer to the freshwater I'm adding to bring down the salinity or should I just monitor the PH in the tank and add buffer as necessary there ?

My other concern at the moment is the Tang is not eating. I've been trying Formula 2 flakes and just yesterday I tried soaking them in SeaChem's Garlic Guard but still no luck. I was gonna try some nori this evening - any other suggestions ?

thanks,
Brendan.

 

[Biggen]

I wonder if it's worthwhile also continuing with the Greenex at the same time

I actually wouldn't use two treatments at the same time. Hypo will do the job on its own.

Should I be adding the buffer to the freshwater I'm adding to bring down the salinity or should I just monitor the PH in the tank and add buffer as necessary there ?

Adding it to the tank will be fine. Just make sure you add it in a high flow area. Don't add too much either as you don't want to overshoot the pH.

 

[BrendanH]

Thanks Biggen.

Now if I can just get the little guy to eat .....

 

[TheMadNucleus]

Brendan,

Another suggestion that can be used in conjunction with the above listed treatment. If you've got a diatom hanging arround, I would recommend it running it on your tank as well - It will remove all free floating Ich parasites as they are bigger than the pores in the diatomaceous earth. This will also speed recovery as the more resilient parasites may dodge the medication for a short while but will get trapped by the diatom.

Also - watch very careful with Kent Super buffer - this stuff will easily over shoot your PH to very high levels.

Also - do you have an oversized UV handy and a small pump. If you circulate water through a large UV at a slow rate it will also greatly reduce the cycling time of the ICH.


Tom

 

[BrendanH]

Thanks Tom but unfortunately I don't either of those pieces of equipment. Also thanks for the warning about the buffer - I hope the dose I gave last night didn't overshoot but I doubt it - I stuck rigidly to the directions on the package (perhaps foolishly trusting here ?? )

 

[Biggen]

FYI you can use washing soda (sodium carbonate) to raise the pH and buffer the water at the same time if needed. This site will give you instructions upon how much to use if you desire to do this:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

 

[Electrobes]

can you use copper in a QT tank and then after they are treated put them back into a reef without issues? (after re acclimating them correctly?

 

[Biggen]

can you use copper in a QT tank and then after they are treated put them back into a reef without issues? (after re acclimating them correctly?

Are you talking about treating fish with copper? If so, yes, they can be treated with copper meds and then be put back into the display tank.