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Old 10-12-2007, 10:30 AM   #11
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The Raccoon Butterfly needs to go back in the main tank with all the other fish. All fish need to go through the hypo treatment. BUT, you are dropping the salinity way too fast. It should go down a few points each and take a week to get down to 1.009. That will help reduce the additional stress on the fish.

If you leave the butterly in the invert tank then that tank will never be free of Ich, you will re-infect the main tank when put the inverts and rock back. That tank needs to be fishless and the fish tank needs to remain at 1.009 for at least 4 weeks.

You should also consider reducing your stock. You have too many large fish for that tank.

Do you have two airstones in the main tank? Are they for effect only?
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:46 AM   #12
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ahh, I thought I had removed the ich from the butterfly after the fresh water dip, anyway the marine shop said put him back in the main tank as well so indeed that is where he is now going.

Yes two airstones that are not for effect and the tank is US 180 gallons and according to the marine shop it is no where near its limits. I did however without a doubt add too much all at once after keeping a very small stock for many years.
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:47 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabba
I still cant get an answer to this, if the fish are able to fight off the parasites with their imune systems through less stress and better water quality does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?
First, I want to say thanks for taking all the great advice already given. It's really good to see a person who actually listens and cares about their critters...
To answer your question. Reducing the stress can not hurt, but the parasite will still be in the tank and attack the weaker of the fish. It is best to do the hyposalinity and try to completely kill off the parasite. I have read that adding garlic guard to their frozen food can help to boost their immune systems.
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:49 AM   #14
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does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?
I think that's a question for the ages. There are those who think it is ALWAYS present as you describe. I'm not one to answer that one - and you will get a LOT of varying opinions on it, that's for darn sure.

I agree, all fish need to be hypo'd. Even the invert tank has to remain fishless for 6-8 weeks so that the free floating ick in there now, will die off without a fish host.
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by jabba
I still cant get an answer to this, if the fish are able to fight off the parasites with their imune systems through less stress and better water quality does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?
First, I want to say thanks for taking all the great advice already given. It's really good to see a person who actually listens and cares about their critters...
To answer your question. Reducing the stress can not hurt, but the parasite will still be in the tank and attack the weaker of the fish. It is best to do the hyposalinity and try to completely kill off the parasite. I have read that adding garlic guard to their frozen food can help to boost their immune systems.
Yep, I was up gone past 2am last night trying to carry out the best rescue operation that I could, at least then I know I did try my best and make the best of a very bad situation that I created, and I know that I must carry the guilt for that.

Hopefully though if just one single fish can be saved then it will have all been well worth it. Thanks also to my old buddy Aaron for creating such a great forum which has such an outstanding and very helpful and knowledgable community.


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Quote:
does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?
I think that's a question for the ages. There are those who think it is ALWAYS present as you describe. I'm not one to answer that one - and you will get a LOT of varying opinions on it, that's for darn sure.

I agree, all fish need to be hypo'd. Even the invert tank has to remain fishless for 6-8 weeks so that the free floating ick in there now, will die off without a fish host.
Yeh this is a question that the marine shop always kinda dodges as well, I guess they dont want to give the impression that they sell fish with parasites. If only they had advised me to get a QT just to be sure then this of course seems to be the best way of trying to keep the main tank parasite free.
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Old 10-12-2007, 06:06 PM   #16
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Any time you add something to your main tank that came from another tank with fish in it you have the possibility of adding the Ich parasite to your tank.
In a well maintained, uncrowded tank the fish can usually fight off the parasite and it doesn't become a problem (IMO). Adding too many fish (crowding), letting water parameters slip, etc. and it can come on with a vengeance.

I was pretty sure that my tank was Ich free after I completed a hypo treatment of all fish last year and then QTd every new coral before adding it to the tank. This past weekend I had a couple of plate corals that were not doing well so I transferred them to the main after less than a week in QT. I'm not overly concerned because there was so little water transfer, but the possibility does exist.
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Old 10-13-2007, 10:27 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by cmor1701d
Any time you add something to your main tank that came from another tank with fish in it you have the possibility of adding the Ich parasite to your tank.
In a well maintained, uncrowded tank the fish can usually fight off the parasite and it doesn't become a problem (IMO). Adding too many fish (crowding), letting water parameters slip, etc. and it can come on with a vengeance.

I was pretty sure that my tank was Ich free after I completed a hypo treatment of all fish last year and then QTd every new coral before adding it to the tank. This past weekend I had a couple of plate corals that were not doing well so I transferred them to the main after less than a week in QT. I'm not overly concerned because there was so little water transfer, but the possibility does exist.
Firstly, thanks very much for all your help and advice so far.

I took another salinity reading last night of the main tank and you will be pleased to hear that it is 1.016 not 1.012 and everything seems to be much happier (this was done on Thursday evening) when do you suggest reducing it down further and to what level ?

How about in the mean time if I change another 100 litres over but rather than just RO I also make that 1.016 and match the PH to that of the main tank etc ?

I did this with the hospital tank (matching salinity, ph and temp etc) and it worked out really well, (everything is still alive so far)

Do you know what salinity the hermit crabs could withstand if I put them back in the main tank as they are starting to fight and what I should be feeding the urchins and cleaner shrimps on in the hospital tank ?

Thanks again

Jab



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Old 10-13-2007, 11:18 AM   #18
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You need to get the main tank down to 1.009. Keep changing tank water for RO water over the next few days until you get down to that level. I do not know of a calculator that will help you adjust the level. I would do a 10% change and check the change in SG after a fes hours with a refractometer.

The hermits will probably die in lowered SG. You may need another bucket to separate them. You could try adding some PVC parts (elbows, 45's, etc.) to give them some hiding room.
You should also do 10% daily water changes on the invert tank, but get that SG up to the 1.022 - 1.026 range and keep it there. As for feeding the inverts, you should do some very light feedings once a day. These are your clean up crew. They normally eat what's left over from the fish feedings, etc.

I see you added an airstone to the invert tank, but I don't see a powerhead in there. Is the airstone sole means of water movement.?
Do you have any PHs in the main tank?
Is there a glass top on your main tank or is it open?
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Old 10-13-2007, 12:47 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by cmor1701d
You need to get the main tank down to 1.009. Keep changing tank water for RO water over the next few days until you get down to that level. I do not know of a calculator that will help you adjust the level. I would do a 10% change and check the change in SG after a fes hours with a refractometer.

The hermits will probably die in lowered SG. You may need another bucket to separate them. You could try adding some PVC parts (elbows, 45's, etc.) to give them some hiding room.
You should also do 10% daily water changes on the invert tank, but get that SG up to the 1.022 - 1.026 range and keep it there. As for feeding the inverts, you should do some very light feedings once a day. These are your clean up crew. They normally eat what's left over from the fish feedings, etc.

I see you added an airstone to the invert tank, but I don't see a powerhead in there. Is the airstone sole means of water movement.?
Do you have any PHs in the main tank?
Is there a glass top on your main tank or is it open?
There is an internal filter in the top left hand corner of the hospital tank (it looks like a grey stingray) that provides surface flow. I dont know if this is any good or not, but the marine shop said I didnt need anything else

The ph of the main tank is about 8.3 (I only have a colour chart to try and match what the reading is)

The main tank just has a wooden lid that I close, although I could leave this open if need be.

I guess I will put the RO freshwater in then, what do you think about 1.016 down to say 1.013 - 1.012 ?

Thanks again

Jab
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:09 PM   #20
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Sorry if I confused you. I was asking if you had any power heads in the main tank for water circulation. Oxygenation of the water occurs mostly at the surface. The surface water should be agitated (think ocean surface) not still. A marine tank should have water flow of 10x - 20x water capacity per hour. In your main tank the output of all water pumps and power heads should be at least 1500 UK gallons /hour. When you decide to add corals you will probably want to increase that.

Do you get a lot of salt creep on the underside of the wood lid?

Dropping the SG .002 - .004 per day should be fine. I shoot for a drop of .003 per day to go from 1.26 to 1.009 over the course of a week. You need to do the same in reverse after treatment, bringing the SG up slowly.

What are you using to measure the SG?

Keep a close on the pH of the main tank during hypo. There is less buffer in the water and it tends to drop quickly. I keep enough s/w mis on had to do a 10% - 20% daily water change. Of course when I did it I had all my fish in a 30 gallon tank so it was a lot easier to do the water changes. Also, the smaller volume of water allows parameters to change much quicker.
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