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Old 10-11-2007, 07:11 AM   #1
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Ich, what to do for the best ? Please Help - With pictures.

PH 8.0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 50mg
SG 1.2
Temp 82C (just to try and speed the ich cycle up)
150 UK Gallons
FOWLR

Hi

I have tried to read up as best I can on ich as it would seem that my fish have started to suffer from it, I have already lost in the last 48 hours a yellow tang and now my regals are covered in it.

All the fish are still very active though and are feeding well especially on the sea veggies I have in the tank.

Am I right in thinking that a healthy and strong fish's immune system usually would keep ich in check ? does that also mean that the fish's immune system actually kills the parasite or it just can cope with it better?

As I understand it, having LR my options for using treatments are very limited and they seem to be a bit hit and miss anyway.

So ruling out catching the fish for going into quarantine I am left with as I understand it reducing the salinity down to say 1.1 to try and kill the parasites.

What is the pay off for this ? how many of my other fish will be harmed by this vs the actual parasites ?

In particular I have some urchins that I know are quite sensitive to salinity changes, would they survive at 1.1 if I changed it very slowly ?

My other fish are

Yellow tangs x 6
Regal x3
SP Angel x1
Foxface x1
Hermit crabs x 8
Cleaner shrimp x4
urchins x4

I now have 100 liters of RO water ready to put in, my main question is do I put it in as fresh water to reduce the salinity or just try a 25% normal water change to try and keep the fish in better condition to fight the parasites.

BTW I am a total noob at this, so please go easy with me, thanks for any help and advice.






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Old 10-11-2007, 08:28 AM   #2
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http://www.aquariumadvice.com/articl...q=2&fldAuto=50

Gotta read this article.

I also notice tangs with ripped fins in the pics above. May have agression issues even with such a large tank. Fighting and nitrates are my first suspicions on the immune systems and subsequent infestation. May have to really re-think your stocking of fish. The hippo tang/regals you have are notorius for ick sensitivity.

Got damsels too? Nitrate at 50? How old is the tank? Looks really young since not much coraline is present I can see. Could have been too many fish added too quickly. What kinda filtration (other than rocks) are ya working with? There may lie the nitrate problem. Could be that, yet I'm also thinkning your cleanup crew is waaay too small (not to update until after you do hyposalinity or meds and treat the ich).

You're really gonna have to narrow down the likely causes of the outbreak and prevent it from happening again. I think I've given you a few suspects above to work with.
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Old 10-11-2007, 09:59 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austinsdad
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/article_view.php?faq=2&fldAuto=50

Gotta read this article.

I also notice tangs with ripped fins in the pics above. May have agression issues even with such a large tank. Fighting and nitrates are my first suspicions on the immune systems and subsequent infestation. May have to really re-think your stocking of fish. The hippo tang/regals you have are notorius for ick sensitivity.

Got damsels too? Nitrate at 50? How old is the tank? Looks really young since not much coraline is present I can see. Could have been too many fish added too quickly. What kinda filtration (other than rocks) are ya working with? There may lie the nitrate problem. Could be that, yet I'm also thinkning your cleanup crew is waaay too small (not to update until after you do hyposalinity or meds and treat the ich).

You're really gonna have to narrow down the likely causes of the outbreak and prevent it from happening again. I think I've given you a few suspects above to work with.
Thanks for the reply.

This tank is about 4 years old, and the rock and some of the fish are 7 years old (from my previous setup) :

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewto...er=asc&start=0

Although you are correct that I have only recently increased the stock by 50% in the last 3 weeks. The poor condition yellow tang is one of the originals from 1999 and I think its just a case he is getting a bit old and has lost most of his colour over the last 3 years, he does seem to be able to survive anything though, and is highly active and eats very well.

The filtration I am running are a couple of eheim 2048's one set up with Ehfimech x 2 litre, Ehfisubstrate x 5 litre, course and fine filter pads.

The other 2048 has kent marine carbon and 3x poly filter and the filter pads again.

I also have an RO unit now so that water changes will be much easier for me (instead of going to the marine shop)

I have no doubt that you are right, that I added too many new fish at once and that is what has caused the ich.

ok so now we know what caused it, and that I have sufficient filtration (I think) now to hopefully prevent it for the future we are back to the current situation. I will also increase my cleaning crew as you have suggested with additional urchins, hermit crabs and a serpant star.

What would you do : I have 100 liters of RO water ready to put in, do I put it in as fresh water to reduce the salinity or just try a 25% normal water change to try and keep the fish in better condition to fight the parasites. ??
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Old 10-11-2007, 10:21 AM   #4
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Never did the hyposalinity thing. Didja read the article? I believe you shouldn't lower it too qwikly, but I'm not sure.

Gotta get those nitrates down to 20 or below.
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Old 10-11-2007, 10:27 AM   #5
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Yeh I have been trying like crazy and at huge cost with those polyfilters and also I got this today : JBL Bio NitratEX

http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/cat...lter-media.asp

But I guess nothing will beat 20% water changes with my RO unit to try and get those nitrates down.

Thanks again for your help.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinsdad
Didja read the article? I believe you shouldn't lower it too qwikly, but I'm not sure.
Yes and it is an EXCELLENT article and that is what I think I am going to start doing tonight, firstly by swapping out 50 litres or so.

The only this I cant find an answer to is this point:

" Once your salinity is down to 1.009, you want to keep it there for 6wks or at least 4wks after the last cyst was present"

Do you know what effect that level of salinty would have on the stock that I have i.e. even if done slowly would it kill my cleaner shrimps for example ?

I guess in any case it can only help reduce the nitrate problem as well.
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:58 PM   #6
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Yes, it will kill all inverts. If you plan on doing hypo in the main tank (and with your stocking level I don't think you much choice), you should set up a small tank for the inverts. That tank should be at 1.024-.1026 SG.

The main tank would then be gradually lowered, over the course of a week, to 1.009. Keep it that level for at least 4 weeks, then take a week to increase the SG slowly batck to 1.024-1.026.

Keep an eye on the pH and all other levels while doing the hypo. Good luck with the treatment.
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Old 10-11-2007, 01:04 PM   #7
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Another article that is sure to help you.

http://www.fantasyreef.com/database/...d=11&item_id=1
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Old 10-11-2007, 07:08 PM   #8
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I believe you have two problems here. You have the parasite in your tank and you also have a bacterial thing going on hence the tang with the eroded fin. All this is caused by adding too much at one time. Esp too many tangs at one time. Your natural filtration (nitrifying bacteria) could not keep up and causing stress to the fish. IMO I would almost do a 25% PWC first to help relieve some of the stress. It would take a heck of alot of of QT space for all those tangs and you cant do hypo in the main or you`ll lose your inverts. I`d almost think about doing frequent PWC`s to relieve the stress unless you can get several QT`s or your LFS could maybe hold them for you. Here are some more articles on ick.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:04 AM   #9
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I'm liking the 20g inverrt tank option so you can hypo the main with all the fish.

Guys, whaddya think? Some rock from the main with new SW to seed the 20g. 30lbs or so?Doesn't look like enuf sand to put in the invert tank. The rock should do, right? A powerhead, hob skimmer (needed?), and real a cheap light. The again, for future additions, now ya gotta QT tank after this is all over with.

Yeah, the large pwc sounds good too. Just make up some more water in case ya gotta do it again soon. Gonna need some anyway for your new invert/QT tank, right? 8)
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austinsdad
I'm liking the 20g inverrt tank option so you can hypo the main with all the fish.

Guys, whaddya think? Some rock from the main with new SW to seed the 20g. 30lbs or so?Doesn't look like enuf sand to put in the invert tank. The rock should do, right? A powerhead, hob skimmer (needed?), and real a cheap light. The again, for future additions, now ya gotta QT tank after this is all over with.

Yeah, the large pwc sounds good too. Just make up some more water in case ya gotta do it again soon. Gonna need some anyway for your new invert/QT tank, right? 8)
That is exactly what I have decided to do. Please remember though this is a damage limitation excercise so there is bound to be some casualties sadly.

Firstly when I got home there was a regal dead that I was lucky enough to be able to hook out and the Raccoon Butterfly wasnt looking good at all.

I wasnt going to stand around any longer so decided to act right away.

I hooked out the urchins and five hermit crabs (I read that they would probably be ok with the drop in salinity, but they sure didnt look happy once I started) and I also managed to catch a cleaner shrimp. All went into the only bucket that I had which I put some LR into and a small airstone with some gravel. I also managed to catch the Raccoon Butterfly which I put into the ro fresh water that I had matched in temp and PH (had to yank the heater from the main tank for a few mins) after about 5 mins the parasites all fell off him, and he seemed alot happier. He went back into the bucket with the others. I dropped the main tank down to 1.012 with 125 litres of RO and added ph buffer etc. I planned to further drop it down to 1.009 tonight but the marine shop advised against this with tangs and said to not reduce it any further.

Everything made it through the night I am pleased to say, and I headed over to the marine shop first thing and got a small tank for the inverts and to see if the Raccoon Butterfly will recover (I dont want to risk further polluting the main tank should he sadly die). I was going to set this up exactly as austinsdad has suggested.

On Monday I hope to order a bigger tank for future QT of new fish etc.

Thanks again for all your great help and advice.






Quote:
Originally Posted by melosu58
I`d almost think about doing frequent PWC`s to relieve the stress unless you can get several QT`s or your LFS could maybe hold them for you. Here are some more articles on ick.
I still cant get an answer to this, if the fish are able to fight off the parasites with their imune systems through less stress and better water quality does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?
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