Ick?

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Bouch097

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
40
Location
Houston, TX
A few days ago, I introduced a new blue tilefish (I know they're tough, but he is cool enough to take a chance) and a coral beauty to my tank. Both looked primo w/ no signs of health issues. Unfortunately, my flame angel started picking on the coral beauty w/in the first hour of introducing him to the tank. Within a couple of days, I noticed a white spot on the coral beauty and his eyes are a little cloudy, but it looked more like an injury from the flame angel picking on him rather than ick.

However, this morning, I noticed my maroon/gold clown (who I've had for over a year w/ no problems) was acting strange. He had gotten himself stuck in the corner behind some live rock, so I let him out, but he's still acting strange (not eating) and his eyes are cloudy. No white spots on him or any other fish, and none of them are scratching.

I added some quick cure to the tank this morning to be on the safe side b/c I unfortunately don't have and isolation tank. I'm still not convinced that it's ick since nobody is scratching and the white spot on the coral beauty doesn't look like typical ick, but I'm not sure what it is. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.
 
I'm thinking it's not velvet either. The white patch is well above the gills torwards the top of the coral beauty. Looking closer, it appears one of the coral beauty's eyes are significantly more cloudy than the other. The clownfish isn't hovering at the top of the tank, but is venturing to the other side of the tank away from it's anemone, which is has very rarely done over the past year. It's his appetite loss that most concerns me, but the other symptoms don't seem to match up to either ick or velvet.
 
The cloudy eyes are secondary to another ailment. Also you say they are refusing to eat. This coupled with the new additions, leans me in the parasitic direction. Its not the white patch that is concerning to me, its the other signs.
Like the artlcle stated physical markings are not always evident.
 
The cloudy eyes could also very well be a very problematic parasite that is transparent. They give the eyes the appearance of being cloudy. Very hard to see on the fish. Whether this parasite (I'll try to get a name) is the cause or not, a 3 to 5 minute freshwater bath will help. If there are these parasites, they will turn opaque and fall off the fish. This will also confirm or deny the presence of external parasites.
 
I'd advise the following:

Separate the flame angel from the coral beauty. Angels fight each other most of the time. There's a lot of stress going on. Test the aquarium for everything...ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, SG. Lower the SG SLOWLY to 1.019. FW dip all the fish (except any wrasses if you have).

I'd like to know more about yout your tank. Please describe.
 
Tank desc: 72 gal bowfront reef ready. Stock: Multiple corals, 1 maroon/gold clown, 1 rose bulb anemone, 1 coral beauty, 1 flame angel (I realize these two may not get along, but this is the first time I've had a problem with them), 1 blue tilefish, 1 christmas wrasse, 1 firefish, 1 dragon goby, 1 sea urchin, cleanup crew. Amm-0, NO2-0, NO3-20, SG-1.022. I'm out of testing materials for pH, etc.

The only way I know of to separate the angels is by flushing one of them, and I'd hate to do that. I will probably try out the FW dip though. Forgive the stupid question, but am I correct in assuming that a FW dip is simply putting them in a bucket of FW for 3-5 minutes (except for the wrasse), then just putting them back in the tank? Or do you reintroduce them via drip? I always thought putting them in FW would kill them, but what do I know...lol.
 
The light just turned on, so everyone's not quite awake yet...
 

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Also, he's a pretty good pic of my bluetile fish. I haven't been able to figure out how to take very good pics of my aquarium, so I was pretty proud of this one. Can you see these pics? They aren't showing on my screen for some reason...
 

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FW dips rarely have much effect on most parasites but if you decide to do so, be extremely careful to match pH and temp. Improperly performed, a dip can be lethal. Also be sure to add a few drops of Methylene Blue. Personally I wouldn't and I think your jumping the gun at this point.

I would first determine if it is C. irritans or possibley A. ocellatum. If so, you'll need to quarantine all your fish, treat accordingly with hyposalinity or copper depending on the parasite while leaving the main tank fallow for 6-8 weeks.

If the tell tale spots of C. irritans do not show up again, it was most likely sediment cause in the slime coat. In which it's most likely bacterial or a simple abbrasion from aggressive behavior. It will most times be easily cleared up with a few good water changes using well aged/aerated SW.

Cheers
Steve
 
There are meds that are specific for reefs and are safe for the inverts and coral.

No need to flush a fish for doing what comes natural. If it were terminally ill, you still don't want to flush it cause it may clog the pipes. If anything, you can always take the fish back to the store.

You need to dechlorinate the FW for the dip and try to make the water as close to the tank temp as possible. After the dip they can go straight back into the tank or if you do find a load of parasites coming off of any of them, you need to keep them out of the main tank. With such a large investment as a 72 gallon reef, it would be worth the money to go out and get a 10 gallon tank, a heater and a sponge filter to use as an isolation/hospital tank.

Using quick cure and any other chemically based meds in a reef tank will eventually kill the reef...the inverts and coral. I would suggest a full water change and fresh carbon and/or a poly filter insert. In fact, you may need to change out the substrate because some medicines can absorb right into it and a thousand water changes will not make much of a diference. Copper is one of those that stay in the substrate.

BTW...How are the corals doing?
 
For Steve S

I wish I can remember the name of this particular parasite, but FW dips is the ONLY thing that kills it. Not copper, Not formalin, no medicine has been found to kill these parasites except FW. It's a parasite that has become very problematic in the aquarium industry. They are round and transparent and an accumulation can show in the eyes as cloudiness. We dip our fish routinely to keep these parasites from entering someone else's tank and a preventative to keep our tanks free of these parasites. Many of the fish are dipped before they come into the store.

Though I can't remember the name of the paraiste I do remember the history of it. The parasite at one point in time were isolated to Lumberjack fish, until Japanese fishing fleets carried these fish all over the world and the parasite is found everywhere now. I see these parasites commonly on Angels and butterfly fish, though they infect several others.

We use to do 5 minute FW dips, but some of the fish can't handle it for that long and wrasses don't take to it at all, even for 3 minutes. Though the angels are tough and can handle a 5 minute FW dip if it's needed. Sometimes we'll dip a second time in a day or two so not to stress the fish even more. Without the FW dips, these parasites would kill the fish. Unlike most parasites that do not kill their host, this one does. I'll search for some web info on this parasite. Once I find it, I'll post a link.
 
TCTFish said:
There are meds that are specific for reefs and are safe for the inverts and coral.
Unfortunately these do not work with any consistancey. "Reef safe" medications are truely not strong enough to erradicate parasites properly. If they where 100% effective, they would not be reef safe.

When treating a parasite, the only 100% effective means are to remove all fish to quarantine, treat and fallow the main.

For Steve S

I wish I can remember the name of this particular parasite, but FW dips is the ONLY thing that kills it. Not copper, Not formalin, no medicine has been found to kill these parasites except FW.
I wish you could too, as for the "Lumberjack" fish, never heard of one :?:

Cheers
Steve
 
Steve,

I'm looking. I e mailed the magazine I saw the article in. Maybe they can help, though the article was published 2 or 3 years ago...hahaha...what kind of luck you'd think I have on that one???...lol. Anyway, I also remember they are a species of monogenae trematode.

I'll find the name eventually. :::eek:ff on quest:::
 
A Monogenea trematode is a type of "fluke". Some will definately let go in a FW dip but the best med is usually Formalin dips.

Cheers
Steve
 
Both are actually recommended. A FW dip then a treatment with formalin. I think the formalin is more for any diseases that can be transmitted from the parasites. Protazoan diseases are hard to treat without getting rid of the parasites that causes them, so the two together make a more effective treatment. Granted FW dips are stressful, but the parasites pose more of a danger. It becomes a "do or die" situation.

I'm still searching for the name of that particular parasite. If I do find the article, that's even better so everyone can become familiar with it. They really have become a problem in the aquarium trade. Not everyone who sells marine fish practice any prevention measures from passing on these parasites. Being these parasites are practically invisable, some of the mysterious deaths of marine fish may in fact be the result of this parasite. It wouldn't surprise me.
 
TCTFish said:
Both are actually recommended. A FW dip then a treatment with formalin. I think the formalin is more for any diseases that can be transmitted from the parasites. Protazoan diseases are hard to treat without getting rid of the parasites that causes them, so the two together make a more effective treatment. Granted FW dips are stressful, but the parasites pose more of a danger. It becomes a "do or die" situation.
I strongly disagree. If done correctly, a series of Formalin dips are all that is needed. FW dips are redundant and only add to further stressing an already stressed fish.

Protazoans are not a disease rather a parasite group unto themselves. They do not transfer anything to the host in terms of "disease" but can cause a multitude of secondary infections.

I'm still searching for the name of that particular parasite. If I do find the article, that's even better so everyone can become familiar with it. They really have become a problem in the aquarium trade. Not everyone who sells marine fish practice any prevention measures from passing on these parasites. Being these parasites are practically invisable, some of the mysterious deaths of marine fish may in fact be the result of this parasite. It wouldn't surprise me.
Love to see it if you find it. Please do post the link when/if available.

FWIW, most "mysterious" fish deaths are typically the result of improper acclimation and/or cyanide poisoning from collection.

Cheers
Steve
 
I know most mysterious deaths are due to acclimation for the most part...on a consumer level. I did say some, not most. On the retail end, given the people in charge of the livestock, parasites and aggression are almost always a culprit. On the wholesale end of losses is usually due to transport. I find it amazing what these animals go through and survive.

Fortunately the areas where we get our marine livestock do not use cyanide methods. How ironic that the areas where explosives and cyanide are commonly used was interrupted by a tsunami. A blessing in disguise??? Hope I don't get hounded for that comment...LOL.
 
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