SquishyFish
Aquarium Advice Addict
Atari said:
I dont...I think the point made that we bring a lot of attention to the reefs that wouldnt be there otherwise is enough to balance the scale.
Irresponsible???
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I dont...I think the point made that we bring a lot of attention to the reefs that wouldnt be there otherwise is enough to balance the scale.
quarryshark
Aquarium Advice Addict
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I don't either. I think there are more important issues in reference to our oceans, like overfishing, depletion of our reefs, shark finning, etc.
I have had many people over and when they see my tank, tons of questions follow. I agree it helps with awareness.
I have had many people over and when they see my tank, tons of questions follow. I agree it helps with awareness.
saberry
Aquarium Advice Freak
Well, I did finally sit down and write a note to saltwater.com. ReefLady, I hope you don't mind but I paraphrased / plagiarized your post in my letter. Your wording on the requirements of the Idol was too good not to include. Here is a copy of what I sent:
To whom it may concern:
I am new to the saltwater hobby and have been doing a fair amount of research before making any purchases for my tank. I recently came across your site and was thrilled with the wide range of fish that you offer.
I was, however, surprised that you offer Moorish Idols for sale online. After reading about Idols and their care requirements and getting feedback from others in the hobby who have tried to keep Idols, it seems fairly certain that these animals die quickly in captivity. For even a remote chance of surviving beyond a couple of months, they need a minimum tank size of 500 gallons, and a constant supply of live foods and even then will probably die in less than a year. In your description, you don't make any mention of these factors or the likelihood of death in even the best conditions.
It is my hope that you discontinue selling Idols completely or at least supply them only upon specific request and after confirming that the potential buyer has a sufficient system to make the attempt and that they are fully aware of the extreme difficulty in keeping these animals alive. I don't think that classifying them with a care level of "difficult" is sufficient in this case.
As a responsible business person and member of the reef keeping community, I'm sure that you are interested in not only making a profit, but also in the proper care and treatment of the animals you sell. Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. Please feel free to contact me to discuss this further.
Sincerely,
Sean A. Berry
I just used the "contact us" link on their site so it may take awhile to get to the proper person. I will let you all know how they respond. And, like ReefLady said, "10 letters will have far more impact than 10 people not buying from that store."
To whom it may concern:
I am new to the saltwater hobby and have been doing a fair amount of research before making any purchases for my tank. I recently came across your site and was thrilled with the wide range of fish that you offer.
I was, however, surprised that you offer Moorish Idols for sale online. After reading about Idols and their care requirements and getting feedback from others in the hobby who have tried to keep Idols, it seems fairly certain that these animals die quickly in captivity. For even a remote chance of surviving beyond a couple of months, they need a minimum tank size of 500 gallons, and a constant supply of live foods and even then will probably die in less than a year. In your description, you don't make any mention of these factors or the likelihood of death in even the best conditions.
It is my hope that you discontinue selling Idols completely or at least supply them only upon specific request and after confirming that the potential buyer has a sufficient system to make the attempt and that they are fully aware of the extreme difficulty in keeping these animals alive. I don't think that classifying them with a care level of "difficult" is sufficient in this case.
As a responsible business person and member of the reef keeping community, I'm sure that you are interested in not only making a profit, but also in the proper care and treatment of the animals you sell. Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. Please feel free to contact me to discuss this further.
Sincerely,
Sean A. Berry
I just used the "contact us" link on their site so it may take awhile to get to the proper person. I will let you all know how they respond. And, like ReefLady said, "10 letters will have far more impact than 10 people not buying from that store."
SquishyFish
Aquarium Advice Addict
I'll see what I can do about putting my letter in and bumping the total up to two. 
HoopsGuru
Aquarium Advice FINatic
FWIW, if we are talking about this picture:
Image courtesty: SaltCorner
These fish are NOT Moorish idols but rather longfin bannerfish (heniochus sp.). They are mistaken probably frequently for MI's, but are better suited to tank life.
quarryshark
Aquarium Advice Addict
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HoopsGuru said:
revhtree
Aquarium Advice Addict
Ok, I am late chiming in on this, but here it is. As many of you know I purchased a Idol about 2 1/2 to 3 months ago. It was at the lfs for at least 2 months, and I thought wow it was so beautiful. I had not intention in buying primarily for the fact that the fish was so expensive ($110). One day I went to that lfs and bought a yellow tang. Upon returning home with my new tang, lo and behold there is my brother in law sitting at my house with a, you guessed it, a yellow tang. I turn around and head back to the lfs. The lfs has no returns. So I am looking around, and he tells me I can have the idol for the yellow tang and some cash. So very stupidly I give in, on an impulse, and buy the idol, not knowing all about it like I know today. The idol came out to cost me $81. Anyway, I bring it home, and it eats like crazy from day one. I have 105pds lr, and it nibble somewhat all the time on it. I fed it frozen shrimp, live shrimp, blood worms, flake, nori, homemade mush, spirulina flakes, and pellets. It ate it all! It never once stopped eating! I came home one day about 2 months later, put some nori in the tank, and he tore into it. 2 hrs later he was dead.
I think that it has alot more to do with unknown factors as to why the Idol cannot be kept in an aquarium. It's not just feeding and water conditions, there is more, that is unknown to us. Hey if you want one, I cant stop you, but I can tell you that it's probably not going to work, and that you more than likely will get your heart broken. I did. Anyway theres my 2.
Here is a pic of what he looked like. I am no photographer!
I think that it has alot more to do with unknown factors as to why the Idol cannot be kept in an aquarium. It's not just feeding and water conditions, there is more, that is unknown to us. Hey if you want one, I cant stop you, but I can tell you that it's probably not going to work, and that you more than likely will get your heart broken. I did. Anyway theres my 2.
Here is a pic of what he looked like. I am no photographer!
HoopsGuru
Aquarium Advice FINatic
It is brave of you to share your story and experience with everyone. The one thing that stands out is that the diet you fed had no sponge/tunicate matter that is the basis of their natural diet. I have no idea if this was the single cause of death, but it probably was a significant factor. Compare it to other fish that do poorly from only having brine shrimp, they just don't get the proper nutrients and they wither away. I'd be interested, in the hands of an experienced aquarist, if any better luck could be had with a feeding Idol (in my reading, getting them to feed is one of the major hurdles) with the sponge foods available for angelfish.
In the future, I think a breakthrough could be made with large tanks and more natural filtration. The sponge growth I have in my skimmerless 55g is interesting, actually fusing together most of the rockwork. The amount of natural food available in a similar large tank could most likely complete a fortified diet added to the tank and allow for natural feeding behaviors (less stress).
In the future, I think a breakthrough could be made with large tanks and more natural filtration. The sponge growth I have in my skimmerless 55g is interesting, actually fusing together most of the rockwork. The amount of natural food available in a similar large tank could most likely complete a fortified diet added to the tank and allow for natural feeding behaviors (less stress).
Just to further highlight how public awareness/education is already helping in some way, here in UK it will soon be illegal to give away goldfish as prizes at fairs, and children will no longer be able to purchase fish or other pets if they're under 16
revhtree
Aquarium Advice Addict
Sorry forgot to mention that the lr had plenty of sponge growing on it at all times, and yes I fed it sponge too.
Jedihunter
Aquarium Advice Regular
MY 2 CENTS
I think its not irresponsible, is just how they manage their business, for what i read a African Neon Goby could be as hard to keep as a Great White so maybe some people is totally compromised with this kind of matters and dare to push themselves as far as they can for the sake of the species.
I agree with Atari's last Reply if someone could find the secret will mean less WC flushes!
JH
I think its not irresponsible, is just how they manage their business, for what i read a African Neon Goby could be as hard to keep as a Great White so maybe some people is totally compromised with this kind of matters and dare to push themselves as far as they can for the sake of the species.
I agree with Atari's last Reply if someone could find the secret will mean less WC flushes!
JH
HoopsGuru
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Roughly how much of the total diet you fed was comprised of the sponge food (if you could put it into a percentage)? Just curious, as to compare your story with others.
divemasterjim
Aquarium Advice Freak
I was gonna ask that but got to drunk last night
Some folks will always take this kind of thing to the extreme. Saying that its untehical or irresponsible to keep corals, fish or other inverts at all. I dont see it that way. Its simular to the radical PETA people who would rather starve a bunch of wild creatures rather than allow controled hunting to keep populations down to where they dont cause a health risk to themselves nor do they pose a significant risk to humans (be that over agressive behavor due to lack of natural food or be that from getting hit by cars, etc).
Its important to know what can be successfuly kept alive and at what skill level one should attempt something and to know if the end result is failure when to just conceed and move on.
Ill give you an example from my own tank. I purchase my wife a flame angel back in Nov of last year. It did ok but never was very active and never ate well. In a few weeks time the fish turned up missing totally. I told her it was likly cyiniade posioned. For christmas I purchased 1 more flame angel and when I showed it to her I told her that if this one does not make it then we will never purchase another flame. Im happy to report that the second flame is living happly in our 75 now for whats going on 8 months.
I know Eric Bornman is developing a 'black list' of corals that he will be publishing soon. These are corals that historicly have proven themselves to have a very poor survivability rate in the aquarium. Education is the key. Seeing an idol in a ank at a LFS is a horrible site because we all know its never going to get back to its natural habitat. Whats even worse it to know that for that one idol thats in the store tank probably 9 have died along the way. What we can do is try to inform the shop keepers and even those patrions that are looking at such fish of their dismal surviability rate. The best that can come out of it is the shop keeper no longer orders them and the worse is that you no longer be welcome in the store. If the later happens then well im sure there are many other stores that would welcome your business.
Its important to know what can be successfuly kept alive and at what skill level one should attempt something and to know if the end result is failure when to just conceed and move on.
Ill give you an example from my own tank. I purchase my wife a flame angel back in Nov of last year. It did ok but never was very active and never ate well. In a few weeks time the fish turned up missing totally. I told her it was likly cyiniade posioned. For christmas I purchased 1 more flame angel and when I showed it to her I told her that if this one does not make it then we will never purchase another flame. Im happy to report that the second flame is living happly in our 75 now for whats going on 8 months.
I know Eric Bornman is developing a 'black list' of corals that he will be publishing soon. These are corals that historicly have proven themselves to have a very poor survivability rate in the aquarium. Education is the key. Seeing an idol in a ank at a LFS is a horrible site because we all know its never going to get back to its natural habitat. Whats even worse it to know that for that one idol thats in the store tank probably 9 have died along the way. What we can do is try to inform the shop keepers and even those patrions that are looking at such fish of their dismal surviability rate. The best that can come out of it is the shop keeper no longer orders them and the worse is that you no longer be welcome in the store. If the later happens then well im sure there are many other stores that would welcome your business.
divemasterjim
Aquarium Advice Freak
divemasterjim
Aquarium Advice Freak
Sorry for the double post I messed up
The problem with animal rights activist (this also applies to my soap box comment) is the fact that some people find fault with something and think they have to fix it by telling others what to do, forcing their belief onto others. They go to extremes and can get fanatical just because they dont agree. This is one of the biggest problems in the world. Look at most of the major problems in the world right now, in one way or another they are because someone thinks they are right and must force their belief on everyone else THATS NOT FREEDOM. No one tells me what I can and cant do bottom line.
revhtree
Aquarium Advice Addict
Thats what I was thinking......hmm....
scuba_steve
Aquarium Advice Addict
my 1 1/2 cent 
this hobby has come such a long way in the past 10 years ! and why ? cause people tried different methods of keeping their tanks healthy ! how many mandarins died and are still dieing ? but knowing that live rock and fuges are the way to go have made it so we can keep these fish right !?! so with out people trying like atari stated then what do ya all want? to leave the animals in the ocean and not study/learn how to keep them alive and allow this sick world to pollute the oceans (exxon in alaska how many times will this happen)? we as humans have caused sooooo much more harm on soooo many more land animals! look at how many we know of that are extinct !! if we were smarter we could have caught some and started captive breeding ! the ocean is 3/4 of the world and we are starting to make an impact on the life in it but nothing compared to land animals !! so instead of fighting the issue that you will never ever win !! why not spend your time trying to grow sponges in your fuge so you can feed such animals !! i really dont buy the fact they need a 500 gallon tank !! they need food !! just like a tang what do most do??? they clip seaweed onto a clip for them to eat !! why couldnt you learn to grow sponges and clip them for food ? the answer isnt imo to leave them and not try thats giving up !! this world is falling apart in soooo many ways and nothing can or will be done now most the damage is done !! and id bet and god if i won the lottery it would be my goal to work on such issues cause it can be done but not with our current ideas !! ive always wondered we collect everything else why isnt there sponge foods?? its silly
i do agree that not all should try but with the time money and effort someone has to do it cause our greedy goverment only cares about one thing thats money
this hobby has come such a long way in the past 10 years ! and why ? cause people tried different methods of keeping their tanks healthy ! how many mandarins died and are still dieing ? but knowing that live rock and fuges are the way to go have made it so we can keep these fish right !?! so with out people trying like atari stated then what do ya all want? to leave the animals in the ocean and not study/learn how to keep them alive and allow this sick world to pollute the oceans (exxon in alaska how many times will this happen)? we as humans have caused sooooo much more harm on soooo many more land animals! look at how many we know of that are extinct !! if we were smarter we could have caught some and started captive breeding ! the ocean is 3/4 of the world and we are starting to make an impact on the life in it but nothing compared to land animals !! so instead of fighting the issue that you will never ever win !! why not spend your time trying to grow sponges in your fuge so you can feed such animals !! i really dont buy the fact they need a 500 gallon tank !! they need food !! just like a tang what do most do??? they clip seaweed onto a clip for them to eat !! why couldnt you learn to grow sponges and clip them for food ? the answer isnt imo to leave them and not try thats giving up !! this world is falling apart in soooo many ways and nothing can or will be done now most the damage is done !! and id bet and god if i won the lottery it would be my goal to work on such issues cause it can be done but not with our current ideas !! ive always wondered we collect everything else why isnt there sponge foods?? its silly i do agree that not all should try but with the time money and effort someone has to do it cause our greedy goverment only cares about one thing thats money
scuba_steve
Aquarium Advice Addict
This is one of the biggest problems in the world. Look at most all the major problems in the world now, they are because someone thinks they are right and must force it on everyone else THATS NOT FREEDOM
sooooooooooooooooooooooooo agreeeee every one worries what eveyone else is doing !! one thing i hate the most we spend soooo much money on drug control for what ?? it been going on for years! you can only police people as much as they want to be policed bottom line ! also pot would be legal right now if the goverment new they could control and make all the money from it !! but due to the fact people can grow it them selfs then they couldnt make money or as much !! if we spend the money we try to stop drugs on helping people with problems instead of treating them like they have the plague our world would be better off !! look at mexico there isnt a drinking age ya never see teenagers in the bars !! whys that !! cause they have been allowed to drink and it not a big deal anymore !! most humans act this way if ya say no you cant have sex/drink what ever then it sparks an interest as to why and then it starts !
sooooooooooooooooooooooooo agreeeee every one worries what eveyone else is doing !! one thing i hate the most we spend soooo much money on drug control for what ?? it been going on for years! you can only police people as much as they want to be policed bottom line ! also pot would be legal right now if the goverment new they could control and make all the money from it !! but due to the fact people can grow it them selfs then they couldnt make money or as much !! if we spend the money we try to stop drugs on helping people with problems instead of treating them like they have the plague our world would be better off !! look at mexico there isnt a drinking age ya never see teenagers in the bars !! whys that !! cause they have been allowed to drink and it not a big deal anymore !! most humans act this way if ya say no you cant have sex/drink what ever then it sparks an interest as to why and then it starts !
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