itchy fish?

[barracuda]

I recently bought a juvenile emperor angel(for a great price) who is in quarintine right now, occasionally he seems to get an itch(for lack of a better word) where he wiggles his fins and swims real fast. He doesn't seem to have any visible signs of disease and the other two fish in with him are fine. The water parameters are in the good range. I am just wondering if this is an advance warning of something showing up in him, I wouldn't want to lose such a beautiful fish. thanks for any info

 

[DaveBeaty]

Is your Quarentine tank bare bottom? He might be flashing, which could be a symptom for either Velvet or Brooklynella.

If it is Brooklynella, the poor thing is probably dead by the time you read this. If it is Velvet, you can try hyposalinity and/or copper to kill the parasite. A "shiny" look to the fish is the symptom

Or, you may just have a goofy dancing fish :? I hope that is all it is.

 

[steve-s]

If it is Velvet, you can try hyposalinity and/or copper to kill the parasite. A "shiny" look to the fish is the symptom

Only use copper on velvet, preferabley Cupramine. Hyposalinity will have no affect in eradicating this parasite.

Please be sure you know what you are treating. Spots will not always mean a parasite but it's a pretty good bet in a new fish. Ick (Cryptocaryon irritans) will look like small grains of sugar and will have an on/off stage being visible on the fish for a few days, dissapear and then come back. Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) will have a similar life cycle but look more like a dusting of salt and can be quite hard to detect. If your possitive it's one of these two but unable to ID it correctly, treat with Cupramine.

Brooklynella will look like the fish has a cloud floating around it. Almost like the fish's slime coat is falling away in whitish sheets. Not as fast killing as Velvet if properly ID'd in time. The best treatment there is a series of SW formalin baths.

Cheers
Steve

 

[DaveBeaty]

Brooklynella will look like the fish has a cloud floating around it. Almost like the fish's slime coat is falling away in whitish sheets. Not as fast killing as Velvet if properly SW formalin baths.

My Keyhole Angel (bad choice for my tank in more ways than one) and yellowtailed damsel didn't have the cloud around them when Brooklynella came for them. They just laid on their side and died about 6 hours later. I didn't know what had hit them until my poor little ocellaris clown got it last and displayed the "classic" symptoms.

I fear my eyes are not good enough to spot velvet on a fish (they all look velvety to me) and if it can kill in less than 6 hours, my God! 8O It could wipe out my poor tank before I woke up!

Vincent Hargreaves in "The Complete Book of the Marine Aquarium" gives the same treatments for Marine Ich and Marine Velvet. Have you had a bad experience with Hypo and Velvet? Is Mr Hargreaves lying to me? Fortunately (Knock on wood) Velvet hasn't hit my tank yet and God willing, it won't

 

[quarryshark]

Hypo does not work with Velvet. Copper is the treatment of choice with velvet and works great with Cryptocaryon. So IMO when in doubt, opt for a cupramine treatent.
I feel you pain, due to a velvet outbreak a year and a half ago, I lost 3 fish within a 24 hr period. It is unfortunately a very fast killer. :|

 

[barracuda]

ok, my fish does not have any spots or clouding on him, he's been in quarantine for a week now and still seems to have the nervous tick. my quarantine tank is a 33gal with a crushed coral base with a canister filter and a hang on aquaclear. both have carbon in them, I used 2 filters so i could get flow, i ran out of powerheads, using 6 on my 130gal.

 

[steve-s]

They just laid on their side and died about 6 hours later

Not possible my friend. Brooklynella takes several days to kill even after the tell tale signs appear. No parasite can kill that quickly except for possibley the fish that carried it in (pre-disposed so to speak). Pre-existing fish would require several life cycles of a parasite for them to become overwhelmed and die. In either event, it cannot take that kind of toll in 6 hours. It would have merely been a coincidence.

Vincent Hargreaves in "The Complete Book of the Marine Aquarium" gives the same treatments for Marine Ich and Marine Velvet. Have you had a bad experience with Hypo and Velvet? Is Mr Hargreaves lying to me? Fortunately (Knock on wood) Velvet hasn't hit my tank yet and God willing, it won't

Lied no, misinformed definately. FW dips will have some affect and relieving heavy infestations but is by no means a cure. Amyloodiniosis is actually much happier in a brackish environment than they would be in full salt. Hyposalinity would just further the problem, not eliminate it. Copper and Chloroquine are the only proven remedies for velvet.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

ok, my fish does not have any spots or clouding on him, he's been in quarantine for a week now and still seems to have the nervous tick. my quarantine tank is a 33gal with a crushed coral base with a canister filter and a hang on aquaclear. both have carbon in them, I used 2 filters so i could get flow, i ran out of powerheads, using 6 on my 130gal.

What are the other two fish in the QT with the angel and how long have each been there?

What your describing in the fish's behavior could be simple discomfort, not a parasite. If the fish is showing no phisical signs of a parasite ie.... spots, color loss, heavy breathing, lethargy, loss of appetite, odd/poor swimming ability other than flashing; it may be an environmental cause. You need to be very sure of what your treating before hand for anything you attempt to be successful.

Please post all the water parametrs (actual numbers please) of your QT including set up.

If you do see spots that appear and disappear and are unable to properly ID the actual parasite, you will most likely need a copper treatment. Cupramine is the best option along with their multi-test copper kit. I would at least know where you can get one in a hurry but at this point I see no need to get one.

Cheers
Steve

 

[DaveBeaty]

After long research I have determined that...

There is NO consensus on this subject

Mr Hargreaves says freshwater dip for Ick and Velvet, but it will kill a fish with Brooklynella. Dr Fenner (I found out he is a veterinarian) recommends Freshwater dip for all three protozoans, as does Bestfish.com, but then they are the source of the UGF controversy. Saltwater.about.com recommends it for Ick and Velvet, but no mention of Brooklynella. Trever Jones of Petsforum.com says freshwater will work only with Velvet, but not Ick or Brooklyn, and AA says it only works with Ick. Gregory Skomal, author of "Setting up a Saltwater Aquarium" (my first salt book) says Freshwater will dislodge but not kill Velvet, But it will kill Ick.

I quit! Where are my swordtails? Just Kidding I already dipped my clownfish, and they are in QT now

Besides, if I left, who would antagonize all the reefers and berliners here?

 

[quarryshark]

As Steve stated, FW dips are good for very little. I speak from experience get a good copper med such as cupramine.
FW dip are a good tool for LFS's to minimize parasites that are brought into their systems, but for the home aquarist, they do little more than stress the animals. If done incorrectly can stress an animal into death. For an already ill animal, this is many times too much for them to handle.

There is NO consensus on this subject

Maybe among authors that have written books on the subject a few years ago, but there are PROVEN treatments which have been illustrated to you in this thread. Many of us have been through this and have successes to back it up.
If a animal is in qt, there is no (imo) reason to loose it to any to the above mentioned parasitic ailments if caught in time. ID it...and treat it.

 

[quarryshark]

Trever Jones of Petsforum.com says freshwater will work only with Velvet

Actually that is incorrect. The article stated that it may give some relief, but highly recommends cupramine as the treatment of choice.

 

[steve-s]

Trever Jones of Petsforum.com says freshwater will work only with Velvet, but not Ick or Brooklyn, and AA says it only works with Ick. Gregory Skomal, author of "Setting up a Saltwater Aquarium" (my first salt book) says Freshwater will dislodge but not kill Velvet, But it will kill Ick.

Actually they both say the exact same thing regarding Amyloodiniosis. As far as AA.com is concerned, that's a fairly large assumption and unsubstantiated claim. Many here do not support the use of FW dips as we know they are not a means to an end. FW dips can be an effective stop gap in the treatment of Brooklynella but are rarely effective as a treatment. Trevor Jones does not make mention of this on his site however. Since Brook lives it's life cycle on the fish and is transfered from fish to fish, FW dips have a limited affect but are ineffective in most cases as a cure.

FW dips can "appear" to make a difference anecdotally but in reality they only offer some minor reflief from heavy infestations. Only the trophonts on the outer skins surface will be affected and not all will be killed either, many simpley dislodge not die. The ones burrowed into the epithelium will be untouched by the FW and continue their life cycle.

Cheers
Steve