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Old 03-13-2012, 09:29 PM   #11
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There is no natural food in the tank I am speaking of. No algae at all, because of feeding only 2 x a week. two 4" tangs, a 5" foxface, a 4.5" maroon clown, and a 3" flame angel, all fat and showing no signs of malnourishment.
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:16 AM   #12
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With all due respect....

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Originally Posted by mr_X View Post
There is no natural food in the tank I am speaking of. No algae at all, because of feeding only 2 x a week. two 4" tangs, a 5" foxface, a 4.5" maroon clown, and a 3" flame angel, all fat and showing no signs of malnourishment.
I don't want to get into an argument about this. All I'm suggesting is that your comment about the fish having a parasite because he's eating with the other fish and getting skinny only has about a 50% chance of being correct. Case in point, your maroon clown and flame angel are "low energy" fish with the foxface not too far behind. Your tank can not be so sterile that there is no other food source for your two tangs unless, of course, you are keeping them in an empty tank devoid of any decorations and surfaces for organic materials to grow and you have no light source or an equal amount of light to nulify brown, green, red, black or any other colored algae that's found in the sea from growing.
These tangs of yours never touch the surfaces of your sterile tank? Come on! I've been at this too long to know this is not true.
The point is Naso's and most surgeons are continuous eaters as opposed to other fish like clownfish, gobies, groupers, lions, anthias, etc. that are opportunistic feeders. Give these posters a break and let them try the most likely solution first before scaring them into thinking there is something wrong. It will save them the costs of medicating, isolating and anxiety over a maybe problem. If my suggestion fails, as it might because I can only be 50% too, at least the fish has had a constant food source to derive whatever nutrition it can get daily as opposed to using it's own flesh to keep itself alive.
You can feel free to dicuss medicating without my interference if I'm wrong

Best of luck
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:09 AM   #13
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You offered your opinion, as did I. I'm not the only one on this forum that doesn't feed constantly, and I have had no reports of fish starving to death as of yet. It's a mistake to overfeed a closed system. It's a great way to get frustrated battling nuisance algae and get out of the hobby prematurely.
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:13 PM   #14
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With all due respect...

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Originally Posted by mr_X View Post
You offered your opinion, as did I. I'm not the only one on this forum that doesn't feed constantly, and I have had no reports of fish starving to death as of yet. It's a mistake to overfeed a closed system. It's a great way to get frustrated battling nuisance algae and get out of the hobby prematurely.
I thought this was called aquarium ADVICE and not aquarium opinion!

My advice was being directed to a single person with a single situation in which my advice was an action that I've used many times before to eliminate this particular situation in a closed system. Anyone else having this same situation would be better informed as to how to fix this situation. A single leaf of seaweed or Lettuce always available for the fish to eat should not be overloading your biological filter and causing algae to grow.

You are entitled to your OPINION however in this fish's case it's detrimental to his health. If your opinion is based on what you are doing with your current tank and bioload, you should state that in your posts because it truly does not fit every situation.

My advice (not opinion) is based on over 35 years of practical Saltwater fish keeping experience and husbandry. It comes from knowledge gained by maintaining fish from all around the world in systems as small as 1 gal and as large as 25,000 gallons and every size in between as well as personal experience in watching these fish in their native habitats and not just in a fish tank. I think I'm qualified to answer the call for help. (FYI: My Veterinarian comes to me for fish keeping advice )

As for constant feeding in a closed sysytem, my OPINION is that if your biological filter can't handle it, you need a better filter. My ADVICE would be to get more surface area for your nitrosomas and nitrobactors to adhere to and a bigger/better protein skimmer.

As I've said before, I'm not looking to argue with people on this site. I have a wealth of experience that I like to share to help perpetuate the tropical fish keeping experience. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it. If you want to correct me, just make sure you're 100% right. That's all I'm asking. In this case, you only came up to 50%.
Have a nice day
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:20 PM   #15
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Soooo back to the OP's issue.

Is it possible to separate the fish and work on a feeding schedule that way? That kinda will kill two birds with one stone won't it? I'm having some difficulty feeding a butterfly right now, just too slow and not as an aggressive feeder as the rest. I've been continually feeding but that can't go on forever in a large tank or water quality would suffer.

My tangs constantly are eating seaweed from the clip and some mysterious algae that I can't see from the rocks lol I would grab a chair and just sit and watch during a feeding. is he getting beat out? maybe he is getting enough food maybe not. I would watch him like a hawk a few times. Just back away from the tank and see what happens.

In the meantime. those algae sheets and a varied diet are the way to go. In my opionion.
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:10 PM   #16
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As far as feeding goes I only feed say every other day(and trust me this Is alot for fish) every fish in my tank is nice and plump. What I would recommend for the tang is start putting in algae sheets every other day for him to graze on, if there are multiple tangs in the tank place algae clips on each side of the tank to allow them all to feed without aggression. After a few months he should be nice and fat. As a side note some fish in the ocean go week without eating, and this can be proven by reading carys thread on her watchmen goby that survived for 8months in the filter, now honestly how often to you thing he was eating down there lol
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Old 03-15-2012, 06:24 PM   #17
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That's quite impressive Andy. You are a benefit to the forum for sure.
I have a little bit of experience also. Not quite as extensive as yours, but I think I can offer some help.
In my time on internet forums, i've noticed that there are 2 major complaints. the second most common is killing fish due to not properly cycling tanks. The first, is algae issues. Cyano, Bryopsis, you name it. While having a massive amount of live rock and a giant protein skimmer would certainly help out with excessive feeding, not everyone can afford to have a system such as this and most go with the pound to a pound and a half per gallon and reasonably priced skimmer setup. This setup is not bullet proof and can be fouled by overfeeding. I've seen it countless times on this forum alone.

I'm under the impression all the other fish are fine, and there was no aggression witnessed. This would lead me to believe it's not a lack of food issue.
You cannot be sure that my advice is detrimental to the health of the fish. It's a guess.
Thank you for your input.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:36 PM   #18
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Back to the beginning...

Quote:
Originally Posted by carey View Post
Soooo back to the OP's issue.

Is it possible to separate the fish and work on a feeding schedule that way? That kinda will kill two birds with one stone won't it? I'm having some difficulty feeding a butterfly right now, just too slow and not as an aggressive feeder as the rest. I've been continually feeding but that can't go on forever in a large tank or water quality would suffer.

My tangs constantly are eating seaweed from the clip and some mysterious algae that I can't see from the rocks lol I would grab a chair and just sit and watch during a feeding. is he getting beat out? maybe he is getting enough food maybe not. I would watch him like a hawk a few times. Just back away from the tank and see what happens.

In the meantime. those algae sheets and a varied diet are the way to go. In my opionion.
In the case of a butterfly not being able to eat, you have a different situation than a skinnyTang. If your butterfly is too slow to mix with the other fish at feeding time, you have a couple of choices: 1- feed your fish at different spots of the tank so that they are not all forced to be at the same spot at the same time and see if he eats. 2- Move him to a separate tank for fattening or in with more docile fish.
Depending on the type of butterfly, the only type of "continuous" feeding I would do would be to put a small, opened clam such as a side neck , cherrystone or middleneck, etc. in to the tank on the same side the 'fly is when you feed the fish on the other end. (We also used flame scallops but they are way too expensive to do that with now.) This way the fish can nibble as he sees fit. This of course depends on what other fish are in the tank with him and if they too will eat a clam. That's if you keep him in the main tank.
If you decide to move the 'fly into a separate tank until he fattens up, you may still find that he will not be fast enough to get fed if he goes back into your other tank. This then becomes an issue of improper mixing of fish and you'll need to rethink either keeping him or keeping him in THAT tank. Butterflies, in general, are slower more docile fish compared to say Tangs, Larger Angels, Thalasoma type wrasses, etc. I've seen them get along better with groupers than with Tangs because they have different food requirement and don't challenge each other for the food.

Hope this helps...
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:46 PM   #19
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Absolutley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomchong22 View Post
As far as feeding goes I only feed say every other day(and trust me this Is alot for fish) every fish in my tank is nice and plump. What I would recommend for the tang is start putting in algae sheets every other day for him to graze on, if there are multiple tangs in the tank place algae clips on each side of the tank to allow them all to feed without aggression. After a few months he should be nice and fat. As a side note some fish in the ocean go week without eating, and this can be proven by reading carys thread on her watchmen goby that survived for 8months in the filter, now honestly how often to you thing he was eating down there lol
This is the difference between an opportunistic feeder vs a continueous feeder. Some fish only eat when they can find food and their metabolism is adjusted for this lifestyle. Others, like surgeons and tangs, can always find food because there is always algae to eat. They have a higher metabolism and need more food. The opportunistic feeder is more of a sedentary type fish and the continueous feeder is usually a constant mover. That was my point, each case is situational.

Hope this better explains it
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:38 PM   #20
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I humbly disagree...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_X View Post
That's quite impressive Andy. You are a benefit to the forum for sure.
I have a little bit of experience also. Not quite as extensive as yours, but I think I can offer some help.
In my time on internet forums, i've noticed that there are 2 major complaints. the second most common is killing fish due to not properly cycling tanks. The first, is algae issues. Cyano, Bryopsis, you name it. While having a massive amount of live rock and a giant protein skimmer would certainly help out with excessive feeding, not everyone can afford to have a system such as this and most go with the pound to a pound and a half per gallon and reasonably priced skimmer setup. This setup is not bullet proof and can be fouled by overfeeding. I've seen it countless times on this forum alone.

I'm under the impression all the other fish are fine, and there was no aggression witnessed. This would lead me to believe it's not a lack of food issue.
You cannot be sure that my advice is detrimental to the health of the fish. It's a guess.
Thank you for your input.
I just reread the original post and the OP explains that they saw no odd behavior from the fish and that it was eating but still getting skinny. This says to me that it IS a feeding problem. A fish with internal parasites twitches and scratches which I would think would be an odd behavior. Since the fish is eating and getting skinny, I surmize it's not getting enough food. Similar to you eating only 100 calories at each meal. You'd still be getting food at every meal but not enough nutritionally to sustain your body mass thereby causing you to get skinny. Not having more food available for him to eat IS detrimetal to his health.

As for algae problems, this hobby has come a long way from my humble beginnings. In the old days, I always encouraged my customers to grow algae as it is THE most natural filter out there. Water from an algae filtered tank would always read better and cleaner than from one that was "clean." Today, with all the mixed tanks of inverts and fish, you just need to mix the right fish together to keep the algae under control or now, there are refugium filters and the like to grow the resources that use the same nutrients as those micro algaes so they are kept under control. Because it makes algae in a tank is a poor excuse to not feed your fish properly. IMO

As for non cycled tanks, I can only blame that on the person who sold the setup to the hobbyist and the hobbyist themselves for not learning about the life they are trying to keep alive. There is a book I always made my customers buy before I would sell them a SW setup. The title was :The marine aquairium in theory and practice." It not only explained what to do but why you needed to do it. If the customer was too disinterested to read a $20 book before spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a setup, how interested do you think they would be in the hobby when they spent their hard earned money on fish and they never lived? It's what's wrong with the internet as the "go to source" for information. It doesn't tell you what you need to know, it only tells you what you asked for. But that's a WHOLE other topic and I don't have my soapbox

Every person who wants to have a SW fish tank should be advised to create the best system that they can afford and not the biggest that stretches their dollar and makes them skimp on necessities. I had a 1 gal tank with 13 living organisms in it and kept it going for 5 years. The only thing I replaced in it was the 3 damsels when they got too big. I kept swapping them out for other tiny damsels that I caught. Why could I do this? Because I set the tank up correctly right from the beginning. If everybody else isn't doing that, they are only fooling themselves that they are going to be able to maintain a healthy system. There is a setup for most every budget. If your budget doesn't allow for the proper setup, then you should be socking away some money until it does. Once again, this is my humble opinion.
I believe I have commented on all your issues.
Thanks for the welcoming
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