Need help with white patches on flame angel.

[reefbound]

let me start from the beginning, A few weeks ago I lost a blue Mandarin and the only thing I noticed amiss was three white patches on his body in different areas, Now my Flame angel has the same white patches on his body...one on his head and the other two are on his back fin... I thought ick was a sand grain looking parasite what can this be? ick too.

 

[cmor1701d]

Can you post a pic?

 

[reefbound]

Can you post a pic?

I already thought of that and the spots dont show on the pic( not yet anyway)...I just went down to check on things before I turn in (3am comes quick) and the spots have disappeared just like with the Mandarin in the beginning...after the spots showed up when the lights went out so did the colors in the fish kind of like a dusky white in color (the whole body) but the fish still ate well and there was no other indications of illness.Im stumped I been searching for fish ailments all evening some have some but not all symtoms... :?

 

[steve-s]

Do you notice any scales standing on end or bloody areas on/near the patches? Does it look more like a rash or cottony in appearance?

Please post as much about the tank as possible including water parameters.

Cheers
Steve

 

[reefbound]

Do you notice any scales standing on end or bloody areas on/near the patches? Does it look more like a rash or cottony in appearance?

Please post as much about the tank as possible including water parameters.

Cheers
Steve

all scales look as they should,except where the dusky white patches are. No bloody areas or cotton...it looks as though the pigment faded ( about 3 mm in size) All the fish are eating like little piggies.
Every once in awhile the angel and the clown will bump off the rock,The Royal Gramma seems fine so far...(I saw it about three times in an hour) When this happened to the Mandarin it was worse when all the lights were out,it lost all color. My lfs sells an all around med which is suppose to be invert and crustatian and coral safe with no copper(I forgot the name) he recommends putting this in the main because its unknown what ails the tank...also my xenia seems to be ,well melting on one side,I've lost 4 snails and six hermits in the last week.

Ammonia-0
Nitrates-0
Nitrites-0
Calcium-520
Ph-8.4-8.5
Temp-80

75 gal tank... Last water change-Saturday the 14th - 20gal. only thing new added this week was Kent invert food. I think that about covers it Please if more info is needed please ask and I will do what I can to answer. I just don't want to lose all and have to start again... TIA.

 

[steve-s]

all scales look as they should,except where the dusky white patches are.

Clarify please, the white areas do have scales standing on edge?

Every once in awhile the angel and the clown will bump off the rock,The Royal Gramma seems fine so far...(I saw it about three times in an hour) When this happened to the Mandarin it was worse when all the lights were out,it lost all color.

Night time color loss is normal for most fish. Mandarin fish especially will go quite pale. It can be quite startling if you are not aware of it. The main issue is if the color loss is visible during the daylight.

My lfs sells an all around med which is suppose to be invert and crustatian and coral safe with no copper(I forgot the name) he recommends putting this in the main because its unknown what ails the tank...

Never, never, never put meds in the main tank. Most will adversely affect something even if minor in the short term. Most "invert" safe meds are also more commonly ineffective treatments for most parasite problems. If bacterial, you risk the biofilter to large degree if adding anti's. The best "medicine" is acurrate diagnosis and treatment in a QT when necessary.

also my xenia seems to be ,well melting on one side,I've lost 4 snails and six hermits in the last week.

Ammonia-0
Nitrates-0
Nitrites-0
Calcium-520
Ph-8.4-8.5
Temp-80

Your Xenia could be a victim of angel snacking. Could also be allelopathy. Really depends on the tank set up, locale of other corals/species and mobile tank mates as well. As for the snails and hermits, lower your Ca, it's likely to be at least part of the issue.

Cheers
Steve

 

[reefbound]

all scales look as they should,except where the dusky white patches are.

Clarify please, the white areas do have scales standing on edge?

The white areas DO NOT have scales standing on end,they look normal except for the color loss in those three areas.
The Ocellaris and Royal Gramma still look normal.

 

[steve-s]

The only thing that's realing standing out would be a nutritional issue or possibley Brooklynella. I would monitor it closely. There's not much I can say at this point except keep the water quality high and have a QT standing by just in case. Too bad the pic won't turn out...

What do you normally feed?

Cheers
Steve

 

[reefbound]

What do you normally feed?

Cheers
Steve

I give zooplankton,frozen brine shrimp,formula one marine pellet w/garlic and wardley flake food at different times of the week and I also see them feast on the little live shimp looking critters in the tank...The only other food that goes in is Kents invert food once a week... I wish the pic would show too.I will keep trying to get a clear pic of the spots. they have a variety of food,do you think I should find one staple and stick to that? or expand the varity more...

edit: setting up and breaking down the QT tank is getting old,I was thinking of setting it up and letting it run like a second tank... What do you think of putting a skilter filter on the 20 gal QT tank with a 10 gal sump along with normal water changes.

 

[steve-s]

I give zooplankton,frozen brine shrimp,formula one marine pellet w/garlic and wardley flake food at different times of the week and I also see them feast on the little live shimp looking critters in the tank...The only other food that goes in is Kents invert food once a week... I wish the pic would show too.I will keep trying to get a clear pic of the spots. they have a variety of food,do you think I should find one staple and stick to that? or expand the varity more...

Variety is very important in the fish's diet as is what you choose. Brine and dried foods depending on manufacturer often being poor choices. The Formula is fine but what in the tank is going to benefit from the Zooplankton or invert food?

Good food choices should include a good variety of meat and veggies, especially veggies in terms of the angel and possibley sponge matter. Frozen foods often "fitting the bill" quite well. There are a variety of quality manufacturers that have well balanced vitamin fortified preparations, Ocean Nutrition being my choice. You can also suppliment foods with liquid vitamins as well. If good choices are unavailable from your LFS, please consider making your own. Quite easy and very affordable. Seach for blender mush on theis forum for some recipes.

edit: setting up and breaking down the QT tank is getting old,I was thinking of setting it up and letting it run like a second tank... What do you think of putting a skilter filter on the 20 gal QT tank with a 10 gal sump along with normal water changes.

That would be just fine but be careful with the skimmer if using meds. Some will be affected by it's use. Also keep in mind that any equipment should remain QT only for safety sake of the main tank. Be sure as well to lightly feed the QT 1-2x a week to feed bacteria and keep the tank cycled if without fish.

I do suspect something, just not clear on what yet so please keep the thread updated if there are any changes/new symptoms no matter how minor. I would definately start with a series of large water changes (well aged/aerated) over the next few days to reduce potential organics as well as augmenting the diet and quality of foods fed. If a minor bacterial issue (which I doubt) it will help. Be sure to get the QT up and cycled in the meantime.

Cheers
Steve
Cheers
Steve

 

[reefbound]

Variety is very important in the fish's diet as is what you choose. Brine and dried foods depending on manufacturer often being poor choices. The Formula is fine but what in the tank is going to benefit from the Zooplankton or invert food?

The zoo plankton I feed is Sweetwater's cultured daphnia spp. says its for all species and I forgot I also do feed a blender mix of all the good stuff that a LFS sells for $4 bux a baggie...expensive I know but if my wife saw me using her blender... shudders...

That would be just fine but be careful with the skimmer if using meds. Some will be affected by it's use. Also keep in mind that any equipment should remain QT only for safety sake of the main tank. Be sure as well to lightly feed the QT 1-2x a week to feed bacteria and keep the tank cycled if without fish.

When this is up and running all equipment used will NEVER come in contact with the main ever again. As for the skilter I can forgo this and just watch parameters and change water as needed.

I do suspect something, just not clear on what yet so please keep the thread updated if there are any changes/new symptoms no matter how minor. I would definately start with a series of large water changes (well aged/aerated) over the next few days to reduce potential organics as well as augmenting the diet and quality of foods fed. If a minor bacterial issue (which I doubt) it will help. Be sure to get the QT up and cycled in the meantime.

I did a 15 gal water change about two hours ago and when I was looking at the Angel and the spots were gone... I know that doesnt mean anything,I just dont know what it was,I will keep a close watch on the tank in the meantime.

I going to start adding water to the QT most likely Sunday, Should I use all new water to start or would lets say 5 gal from the main and the rest new water and toss in a shrimp piece to start the cycle process. The QT is 20 gal long with a Americal 150 wet/dry/sump,about 5 xtra gal.

 

[steve-s]

I going to start adding water to the QT most likely Sunday, Should I use all new water to start or would lets say 5 gal from the main and the rest new water and toss in a shrimp piece to start the cycle process. The QT is 20 gal long with a Americal 150 wet/dry/sump,about 5 xtra gal.

You can fill the QT with all main tank, all new or a mix of both. It really doesn't matter much unless the fish is being added quickly then I would use all main tank water. Otherwise it doesn't matter, the amount of beneficial bacteria in the main tanks water is negligable and of no consequence.

Cheers
Steve

 

[reefbound]

steve-s,
Thank you for all your replies... I added all new water earlier today and all I have to do is go buy a shrimp unless I can get the same effect with a couple of frozen silversides... I posted a couple of pics of my main and new QT setup in the General section if you want to take a peek...

 

[steve-s]

Anything that rots will create ammonia so it really doesn't matter fish or shrimp. I will have a look at your other thread

Good luck
Cheers
Steve