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Old 07-20-2003, 02:55 PM   #91
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Yeah, I've always had a theory about working with computers. When they baffle and frustrate you beyond your capacity, getting drunk will often provide the relief and just enough clarity to see the solution. Hehe.

Where and how is a good way to buy rock? The reason I have so little thusfar is because I can't afford to spend all that much at a time. I bought my rock for $6 a pound, which is a pretty good price around here. Is there a good place to buy it online or something? Any other suggestions for good deals?

Do you think more rock would be more benificial than a sump to replace the backpack?
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Old 07-20-2003, 03:13 PM   #92
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Adding a sump would be a great idea, but I think adding the rock will do the same thing. It's up to you. If you do add the sump, keep the bakpak as it will help with your problem moreso when they are combined.

Good souces of LR are usually found online. Others could possibley direct you to a good E-tailer. You could also consider the option of using dry base rock and placing the LR you already haave atop of it. HiRocks is a great source $1.33/lb for 60 lbs and that includes the shipping cost.

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Old 07-20-2003, 03:21 PM   #93
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I'd like to stick with fiji LR since that's what I've got thusfar. Could you suggest a good place to purchase said rock?
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Old 07-20-2003, 03:29 PM   #94
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Couldn't really tell you where a good source is as I live in Canada.

I would not worry to much about the location the LR is harvested from. In fact, the more diffrent types of rock you place in the tank, the greater your bio diversity. Fiji rock is really not the best as it is also the densest and not great for the purposes of dentrification. It is however great "seeding" rock for coralline.

Tampa Bay rock, tonga rock, kanai rock, gulf rock and so one are usually good choices. Just watch out for mantis and other pest hitchikers with the gulf and tampa rock.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 07-20-2003, 05:15 PM   #95
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I read that article on fishless cycling. That is a pretty good idea. I don't know what I should do at this point, though. I'm abandoning the idea of bleaching all my stuff and starting the tank over again. I think that instead I'm going to mix up a huge amount of water (30 gallons or so), vacuum my sand with my syphon hose, clean the filter out thoroughly because it has a lot of junk sitting in the bottom of it, and replace the water with the said 30 gallons of freshly mixed water. At this point I may or may not add some rock to the tank to give the bacteria some more room to grow. That depends on finances.

I'm tempted to throw in some raw shrimp as the article suggested, but I'm affraid of two things... first, it will make the tank cycle a bit, and my inverts will die (cuz I don't have much place to put them... second, the little buggers will eat the shrimp anyway.

Does this sound like a good idea? Any additional suggestions?
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Old 07-20-2003, 05:25 PM   #96
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I'm tempted to throw in some raw shrimp as the article suggested, but I'm affraid of two things... first, it will make the tank cycle a bit
It will definately increase the amount of ammonia, but I fear that without increased surface area for the nitrobatcers if will not yield possitive results.


Quote:
and my inverts will die (cuz I don't have much place to put them... second, the little buggers will eat the shrimp anyway.
Does this sound like a good idea? Any additional suggestions?
They will try and eat most of the shrimp and I would not add it due to the inverts. Sharp increases in ammonia will most likely doom them. Other than what has already been suggested I don't think there much left to add. Personally, I would not do the massive water change or sustrate cleaning. Just do a few small water changes over the next few weeks and let nature do the rest for you. With such a light bio load, the excess nitrosomonas will decrease on their own without continual wastes being produced. It will then allow for the nitrobacters to catch up. If that's the case, then you must be extremely careful when/if you add fish later. Without an increase in the amount of LR or the addition of a sump, you will be back to square one.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 07-20-2003, 08:55 PM   #97
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I went up to my LFS to buy ammonia and nitrate tests today, and the owner of the store (with whom I've spoken a few times) recognized me and asked me how the tank was doing. I told him that it was doing about as well as one-armed man hanging from a cliff with jock itch. He asked me what my plan was, and I told him that I was just going to let the tank sit for a while until the nitrites disappeared and then add a fish at a time very slowly. He said that I was crazy to think that 0.1 nitrites was a serious problem. He said as long as it never goes above 0.1 it shouldn't be a problem. *shrug* It never does. He says that all the tanks in the store do that; fluctuate between 0 and 0.1. Another contradiction in this confusing hobby.

He asked me if I ever used any chemicals to clean the glass. I said that I used Windex, but I had a top on the tank that covered like 95% of the surface area of the tank and I was careful never to spray near the open parts. He said that was probably my problem. He said that if ich wasn't showing up on even a third of my fish, then it was just the natural amount of ich in the tank taking advantage of fish stressed by some other, more serious problem. He told me I should do some big water changes to get rid of whatever chemicals or other such junk was in the tank and put some fish back in and test it.

What do you all think? Please elaborate beyond "He's crazy," or "Don't bother talking to that idiot anymore." If I believed it every time I heard that, there wouldn't be anyone left to talk to in this hobby. :P

I swear you NEVER hear the same thing twice where aquariums are concerned. What one person swears by another condemns. *sigh*
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Old 07-20-2003, 11:30 PM   #98
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Quote:
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He said that I was crazy to think that 0.1 nitrites was a serious problem. He said as long as it never goes above 0.1 it shouldn't be a problem. *shrug* It never does. He says that all the tanks in the store do that; fluctuate between 0 and 0.1. Another contradiction in this confusing hobby.
True, his tanks are most likley at that level due to constant changes in bio load as well as feedings. LFS tanks usually all share the same filtration system which will incease the chances of nitrites. They are not much a concern to him simpley becasue the fish do not have to weather that kind of environment long term. Most fish are gone within a week or two. Only a fish that must endure for a longer period would suffer.

Quote:
He asked me if I ever used any chemicals to clean the glass. I said that I used Windex, but I had a top on the tank that covered like 95% of the surface area of the tank and I was careful never to spray near the open parts. He said that was probably my problem.
That would definately cause a problem. Cleaning products should never be used in the vacinity or your tank. Whenever I use something like that, I do it in a different room and spray the cloth, then go to the tank. Carbon would/should remove the chemical/pollutants as well as the water change.

Quote:
He said that if ich wasn't showing up on even a third of my fish, then it was just the natural amount of ich in the tank taking advantage of fish stressed by some other, more serious problem.
As I have said before, there is no such thing as a natural amount if ich. A display tank can go it's entire time without ever having a parasite problem if the fish are QT'd prior to every addition to the disply tank. Fish do not always have ich. That is a myth and your LFS is perpetuating it.

Cheers
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Old 07-21-2003, 02:04 AM   #99
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Quote:
and I told him that I was just going to let the tank sit for a while until the nitrites disappeared and then add a fish at a time very slowly.
This is a sound plan, although as has been mentioned, you need to add more biological media/surface area. preferably in the form of additional LR, but even a larger filter would suffice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guage
He said that I was crazy to think that 0.1 nitrites was a serious problem. He said as long as it never goes above 0.1 it shouldn't be a problem. *shrug* It never does. He says that all the tanks in the store do that; fluctuate between 0 and 0.1. Another contradiction in this confusing hobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve-s
True, his tanks are most likley at that level due to constant changes in bio load as well as feedings. LFS tanks usually all share the same filtration system which will incease the chances of nitrites. They are not much a concern to him simpley becasue the fish do not have to weather that kind of environment long term. Most fish are gone within a week or two. Only a fish that must endure for a longer period would suffer.
Totally agree with Steve here!! In an established tank there should never be any ammonia or nitrite. If there is, then it is a sign that something is going on with your tank. As noted by Steve, it is fairly obvious what is going on with the dealers tank. One thing I would like to recommend here, get some quality test kits. Your understanding of what is going on with your water is only as good as your test kit, I personally use Salifert kits They are very accurate (will actually give a 0 reading) and user friendly.

Quote:
He asked me if I ever used any chemicals to clean the glass. I said that I used Windex, but I had a top on the tank that covered like 95% of the surface area of the tank and I was careful never to spray near the open parts. He said that was probably my problem.
OK, this could be a problem, but I seriously doubt it is your problem. If the windex were the problem, those three fish you had in there would have died. You would have noticed each time you cleaned the glass, fish died, all of them. The inverts would have died as well. Chemical poisoning would have caused an entire tank crash. That said, I do not use windex or any other spray cleaner near my tank. I clean the glass with water and vinegar and paper towels

Quote:
He said that if ich wasn't showing up on even a third of my fish, then it was just the natural amount of ich in the tank taking advantage of fish stressed by some other,
Ick is not an infection, it is not a disease, it is not a virus, it is an external parasite, similar to a tick. Since there is no natural level of ticks for the human body, there is also no natural level of ick for the fish. If you do not put it in your tank when you add a new fish, it will not be there to infest other fish.

Quote:
He told me I should do some big water changes to get rid of whatever chemicals or other such junk was in the tank and put some fish back in and test it.
This concerns me. You have told this man your story, how your fish have been dieing and he wants you to immediately put more fish in your tank? Is he giving you these test fish for free? I think it's obvious where his motives are.

Quote:
What do you all think? Please elaborate beyond "He's crazy," or "Don't bother talking to that idiot anymore." If I believed it every time I heard that, there wouldn't be anyone left to talk to in this hobby.
I really hope you haven't seen that here. When people are wrong, I hope we let you know they were wrong, but not in that manner. I hope we tell you what is right and why it is right, then you can come to the conclusion that the LFS is out for your money, not the health and well being of your tank. This thread is 10 pages long, my post here is number 98. I have spent alot of time on this thread, steve-s has posted to this thread more than everyone (accept you) and has spent alot of his time on it, ReefLady has taken time on this thread a few others as well. None of us are selling you anything, we have nothing to gain from misleading you. All three of us pretty much agree with what is going on and what you should do to fix it. Our advice is sound, it is the same, or very close to the same as you will get anywhere. There are several methodologies in this hobby and some people like some more than others, vociferously so , but when it comes to issues like this, most experienced hobbyist will agree.
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:30 AM   #100
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Gauge, One thing I would like to make clear is that we the members and staff at aquarium advice have nothing to gain from your problems. In fact we have everything to gain from helping you get the answers you need and geting positive results in turning your tank around.

As hard as it might sount your LFS has alot to gain immedeatly from your problems. Most LFS's will be the first to recommend you purchase something that will 'take care of your problems'.


I dont know if there is much more that we can say to help you that has not already been mentioned in this topic that now streaches 10 pages.
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