Problem with Emperor Angel

[929rrchico]

ok here it goes....I have an Emperor angel (Juv) which is starting to get white blotches/spots on him – no sign of viral infection or growth or tear or anything, just blotches of discoloration. Last time this happened on another emperor, it died a few days later. The other thing that it appears to be doing is going up to other fish, like a small butterfly and even a dog face puffer (all fish are docile in the aquarium and none of them fight) and they both rub up against each other and flap their fins with each other….any idea what this is (again, last time I saw fish doing this they ended up dieing on me)?????

I've also noticed a cuople of other fish (percula clown and blue tang) scratching up against live rock - guessing ick, but no sign or trace of it....??

Here is the current specs:

Food: Spectrum Premium A+ Pellets
Water Quality:
a. nitrate – 5ppm
b. nitrite – 0
c. ammonia – 0
d. PH - 8.23 – 8.30
e. Specific Gravity – 1.021

Water Temperature: 77-79F

Tank info:

125Gallon
Pre-drilled on both sides
Sealife Systems Wet-Dry filter
(3) chemi-pure carbons
Lifeguard 8watt UV sterilizer (switching to 40watt) – currently running with dedicated RIO 1700 pump, sucking from the sump going back to the sump - at roughly 350-400GPH
Mag-Drive Utility pump model 18 (1800GPH) used for both returns
Aqualogic 1/4HP Chiller
Protein Skimmer

Any help would greatly be appreciated – thanks in advance.

 

[fishfreek]

One thing to note. I belive you have to much flow going thru your UV at this point. You note its on a RIO 1700.

Here is a link from petwarehouse.com when i look at the rainbow lifeguard UV page. Click Here

It puts the max GPH thru the 8W unit at 240GPH. Anything above that will in effect lower the effectivness.

According to the following page Click Here THe Rio 1700 has a flow rate at 0' head of 642GPH and When you say its roughly at a flow of 350-400 that would mean its got a head pressure of 3' or 4' in height.

If it is ich you could rase the temp slowly from 77-79F to 82F range. Also do you have a grounding probe? The grounding probe has nothing to do with ich as far as I know just that sensitive fish can be effected by stray voltage in the tank and grounding probes could lower the overall stress on the fish from this stray voltage.

IS that the only food you have been feeding? I like to suggest a varied diet of Nori, and meaty foods for saltwater fish.

Hopefully others will chime in aswell with ideas.

 

[Bassoonguy]

I have an emperor and I suspect your problem is diet, especially since you have had simliar problems before. Large angels require some sponge in their diet, I use Formula Foods frozen Angel formula for sponge eating fishes. Since adding this to a diet of Mysis shrimp, krill and nori, I have noticed a marked improvment in coloration and a reduction of aggressive behaivor from my juvenile angel (my lion and butterfly love the angel formula too LOL)

Good luck, the angels are amazing fishes!

 

[929rrchico]

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yes I agree that the flow is curently too high, and yes it's at about 4' hence the 400GPH value - but that 8watt is being replaced today with a 40watt, which has a max flow rate of 1200, so I would think 350-400GPH should be good enough.

As for the diet, yes, that's all I've been feeding them - simple because they all eat it and keeps my nitrate levels to 5-10ppm max - it's amazing, but maybe you're right.

My concern is the flicking and scratching without any noticeable spots of ick, other than the emperor having white blotches on him (as of the fish is loosing it's color) around the sides of his body....so my guess is that they really either have ick or velvet....??? could I be wrong on this, I don't want to medicine the tank unless I have to (although no inverts on there, so not that crucial to medicine the tank after all)....

I've been tol Marircyn II works best....???

I'm I on the right track - because this is driving me crazy - all water checks out perfect and even took it to have it tested and all looks good, as you can see from the values above....

thanks!

 

[929rrchico]

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once other thing - I had the tank temperature in the past at about 85-86F - I'm assuming this is too much for the fish.....???

That's why I bought the chiller for it....is 85-86 too stressfull and fatal....or would it be ok?

 

[Bassoonguy]

Just took a look through "The concientious Marine Aquarist" by Bob Fenner.. great book! It has a diagrahm of common parasitic disease manifestations.. large white patches may be a sign of Brooklynella hostilis "Anemonefish disease".. treatment is recommended as copper or Formalin. Ich appears as small white salting of white dots.. velvet is a dusting of golden white smaller dots. All three manifest in scratching, labored breathing, and may not exhibit outward signs until too late. Clowns are sensitive to copper... so maybe Formalin would be the way to go on this one?

 

[Bassoonguy]

And yes 85-86 degrees is a bit too high.. 79-82 is where you might want to shoot for

 

[reefrunner69]

If it is just the perc and the blue tang (??Paracanthurus hepatis??) that are flashing, it may be ick (behavioral signs are usually visible before any spots) or it may just be the fish. Both are notorious for flashing, when there is nothing wrong with them.

For the emperor, how big is it? They will get very blotchy during their color change. Brooklynella would also be evident by exccess slime production and sloughing of the skin.

 

[929rrchico]

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ok - I also got a 72G which has a semicirculatus and another tank 125G which has a Koran angel and they're both showing the same symptoms on the discoloration. No scrathing or anything just pathces of discoloration on their skin, as if they were born with a skin disease. I've already determined it's not ich or velvet since it's not a superficial item - meaning it's not something on top of their skin, it's their actual skin which is discoloured....any thoughts on this - I can not find a reference to this anywhere - has anyone ever seen this - could this be stress.

Also, on the 72G it could not be nutrition since I've been feeding them a variety of foods, such as silver sides, pellets, frozen cubes...

Water values and temperature remain the same as above - just tested this morning.

 

[michealprater]

Sounds like both fish are changing from juvinile to adult to me.

 

[929rrchico]

.

well, the koran is actually an adult - so that's not possible, since he's got his full colors. And as for the emperor, I've had others and have seen them go through their color changes - this is completely diff. trust me - I'm going to see if I can take a pic of it tonight and post it so you guys can see.

 

[reefrunner69]

Sounds like both fish are changing from juvinile to adult to me.

This is certainly a possibility, but I wouldn't rule out nutrition or bacterial infection.

What are the water parameters of each tank, and specifics of filtration, lighting and maintenance of each tank. Exactly what it is you feed and how often.

 

[929rrchico]

.

Here you go:

125G - Pre-Drilled (hardware):
-----------------------------------

(2) 40W actinic blue
(2) 40W 10k full spectrum
Mag Drive Model 18 used for dual return
Sea Life Systems Wet/Dry
Sea Life Systems Protein Skimmer
LifeGuard 40W UV Sterilizer
RIO Model 1700 pump used for UV Sterilizer
1/4HP Aqualogic Chiller
(3) Chemi-Pure carbon bags

Water:
--------

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0
Calcium - 420
pH - 8.23 - 8.30
Phosphates - .25 (on the high side)
Temperature - 70 to 80F
Specific Gravity - 1.022


72G - Pre-Drilled (hardware):
----------------------------------

(1) 40W actinic blue
(1) 40W 10k full spectrum
Mag Drive Model 5 used for dual return
Sea Life Systems Wet/Dry
Sea Life Systems Protein Skimmer
CoraLife 18W UV Sterilizer
RIO Model 1700 pump with ball valve to restrict water flow used for UV Sterilizer
1/4HP Custom Sea Life Power Cooler Chiller
(2) Chemi-Pure carbon bags

Water:
--------

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0
Calcium - 420
pH - 8.23 - 8.30
Phosphates - .25 (on the high side)
Temperature - 70 to 80F
Specific Gravity - 1.024

Feeding:

125G - Have changed to 3 to 4x per week, one day consisting of Spectrum A+ pellets, one day consisting of Formula 1 cubes and one day consists of Silver Sides/Pellets

72G - Same with the exception of the food: Spectrum A+ Pellets and Formula 1

 

[reefrunner69]

Two things really jump out at me,
One is the temp range. Does it fluctuate 10* over the course of a day? is it not constant from day to day? I would get a good heater, set it to 80-82, natural reef temps average 80-84.
Two is the diet, How much sponge is in Formula 1 cubes?? Even if it were the number one ingredient, which I don't think it is, it is not fed every feeding. In the wild, sponge makes up the majority (on the order of 85-95%) of a large angels diet in the wild. I am really thinking this is a combo of both, but I would like to see the pic of the fish.

 

[929rrchico]

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Sorry, the temperature is 79-80 - I will try adjusting to 80-81 and see what happens - I did have it at 85/86 at one time and lost a couple of angels to it - they did not like it that hot. This was before I got the chiller.

I will try and post some pics. Def. seems to be stress related, I say that because last night I had to transfer a fish from the other tank to it, since it was eating my anenomes and the one in question ended up with more spots - so it's got to be stress. And yest. I also saw him and my majestic going at it. So that's prob. what's stressing him......

 

[929rrchico]

Here are (2) pics of the fish in question:

Note: There is nothing superficial on the actual skin.

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[Bassoonguy]

I quote Bob Fenner here:
Koran angels are more sensitive to poor water quality as marine aquarium species go. Excess organics often show as blotchy white-marked areas, and are directly positively correlated with ease of infectious and parasitic susceptibility

What kind of protein skimmer do you have? Also.. this seems to be a picture of a juvenile Koran Angel (Pomacanthus semicirculatus) do you have pics of the Emperor as well?

 

[929rrchico]

.

Unfortunately the Emperor did not make it.

I have a SeaLife systems Model 200 which is for up to 200G - this on the 125G, which is where the Koran is......