Puffer pulling fin into gill, and tiny white dots of fins

[contactpsb]

I have a 150gal tank with a dogface puffer, a lunar wrasse, a miniatus grouper and a blue jaw trigger. I am writing about my puffer. For some weeks now he has has these little tiny white dots on his fins and his eyes have been somewhat milky looking with what could possibly be dots on them as well. These dots are so tiny, I'd equate them to maybe the size of 1 grain of sugar (if not smaller). I didn't think too much of it but it's not going away, and it hasn't spread to any other fish.

I have also witnessed my puffer pulling his fin inside his gill on several occasions. I freaked out the first time or two, but as soon as I peaked his interest and got him up and swimming around he eventually worked it out, and within about 30-60seconds was moving it around again (kinda looked like it was asleep, like when you sit on your foot). I mentioned this in the pufferfish yahoo group, and someone suggested gill flukes, which made me feel terrible because of not taking action on the little white dots (if that's even what they are). I'm looking for suggestions on what to do, and if anyone else's puffer does this "fin inside the gill" routine...

 

[austinsdad]

Check for marine velvet/oodinium. It is usually first visible on the pectoral fins and does look like fine sugar coating. If you see it there, it's been thru the gills already and you've gotta act fast.

 

[contactpsb]

Follow up.... the past 2 days he is now acting sick. It almost looks like he has been dusted with a shimmery gold powder, like those ladies makeup that are supposed to give you a heathy radiant glow? However it's not having that affect on him. I looked at a bunch of medicines at the LFS and ended up buying Copper Safe by Marcel which is for the treatment of ich and velvet. Does this sound like Velvet to anyone? What else can I do for him and his tankmates? Should the temp be changed or anything?

 

[quarryshark]

Yup thats Velvet. been there done that.
You need to move all of the fish quickly to a qt tank and treat with the copper. You can't treat copper in your main, will kill any invert, live rock, etc.
The main tank need to be left void of fish for a period of 8 weeks, this will allow the parasite to go through its life cycle and die off.,
Your puffer is copper sensative, if you can find it, use cupramine. It is a better tolerated form of copper. Also need the proper copper test kit (in this case seachem's multitest kit). Marinedepot.com sells the test kit if you LFS doesn't have it.
I would hurry, not to scare you but I lost 3 fish within 24 hrs to velvet.

 

[contactpsb]

Oh great... well what about this Copper Safe stuff I just dumped in there yesterday, will that not help? I have an empty tank that I guess I could use to QT them, but would like to be sure before I go through all that. Can I get some more opinions (no offense quarryshark, I appreciate that you at least took the time to respond to me so quickly, and it's not that I doubt your expertise, just wondering if maybe there is another route I could take.)

 

[quarryshark]

Well, the coppersafe will kill the parasite if kept at the proper level, the problem is it will kill everthing else in the tank too (live rock, good bacteria, etc).
As far as waiting, I understand ...I would want other opinion too. The problem is that Velvet will not wait. It is a fast killer and If the fish are infected as bad as you state, it appears that advanced stages have set in and there is not much time. I would move them ASAP.
Sorry, not trying to be "doom and gloom". These are just the fact about treating this parasite. Copper is a QT tank is the best way to treat. Hypo and dips will not do the job.
Here are a few good articles.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/amyloodinium.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm
Also the fallow time for the main is a must, just like any parasitic outbreak.
Once again, not trying to be harsh, the treatment is not easy, but if done correctly it is curable.
Good luck!!!

 

[quarryshark]

sorry, double post

 

[dralarms]

You need to do some very fast water changes on your main. Maybe you can get the copper out before it is absorbed by your rock and sand. QS is right a QT is a must. HE and I are treating for ick right now, he is using hypo salinity and I'm using copper safe. Both will kill your inverts. and coppersafe will kill your liverock, live sand.

 

[steve-s]

Quarryshark and justmy2cents have definately put you on the right path. Copper is really the only effective treatment for Amyloodinium ocellatum. With the puffer though, I would highly recommend the use of Cupramine over any other type. Puffers do not tolerate copper meds as a rule and the cure can often be as bad as the problem being treated. In this case Cupramine used at 0.4 mg/l will effectively rid the parasite and be less stressful to the puffer. Be absolutely sure it administered in a QT. For the main tank I would get some polyfilters to help remove the Copper Safe.

Cheers
Steve

 

[dralarms]

Thanks Steve-s I didn't know that about puffers.

 

[Terry B]

In the past I would have said that copper is the only effective treatment against amyloodinium. I agree completely that Cupramine is the only copper that I would use with a puffer. I am sorry that I didn't respond to this thread sooner. A fine gold or biege powder on the fish sure sounds like amyloodinium to me. The others are right, this infection must be treated immediately. By the time you can easliy see a fine beige powder on the fish it is usually too late.

Copper makes things worse at first because it causes the fish to produce more mucus when they are already having a hard time breathing. This is one reason that I prefer to use chloroquine phosphate (available as Marex by Aquatronics). You may have to get it from a vet. Chloroquine works quickly and even kills parasites attached to the fish. It gives some relief in hours. You can use it by dosing only on the first day at 40mg/gal in a QTank.

I am not a big fan of FW dips, but it does help remove some amyloodinium. You can give the fish a FW dip and then use Cupramine or chloroquine. I believe the two can even be combined. Copper suppresses immune function and a badly infected fish is probably going to have a bacterial infection of the gills to complicate things.

I have discussed a experimental treatment for amyloodinium with Dr. Noga at NCSU, professor of aquatic medicine and Dr. Angelo Colorni a highly respected authority on Cryptocaryon irritans. My hypothesis is that the transfer method should work with amyloodinium. Doctors Noga and Colorni both told me that it should work in theory and it has been proven effective with Crypt (ich). I suggested the idea of using chloroquine on the first day and combining it with the transfer method. You can read about the treatment in part 5 of my series on Cryptocaryon irritans. You can find it in the library at http://www.MarineAquariumAdvice.com

I am sorry if this information is too late to help contactpsb. Maybe it will be useful at a later date. I hope things worked out for contactpsb.

Cheers,
Terry B

 

[austinsdad]

Any of you heard of a product called Revive? It worked VERY well for me.

After 8 fish deaths in 2 weeks time (didn't know what Velvet was at the time). I dosed my main tank, w/coral, shrimp, snails and all. Dosed it twice w/in 4 days. The second time, I turned the skimmer off for 2 days. The remaining 3 fish survived (yellow tang, wacthman goby and b/g chromis) and have been doing fine for 5 months now - along with the new fish added since.

 

[squidlyme]

I can't really give any advice on the medicine, but I can let you know my dogface puffer tucks his fin in once and awhile. I don't know why, but it never seems to be a problem.
He also had a few bouts of white spots. I raised the temp. in my tank, plus tried the hypo-salinity and the spots cleared up. Good luck.

 

[pufferman]

how about trying a FW dip Steve???

it works great on the fish, but doesnt help the tank, get a QT and put all the fish in there and wait about a month before you put them back into the main tank.

P-MAN

 

[steve-s]

how about trying a FW dip Steve???

I am not a fan of dips at the best of time but with Amyloodinium it will remove some of the trophonts but do nothing in terms of ridding the fish of the parasites. If the fish where heavily infested it could be a benefit but if treated in time, the Cupramine will definately do the job. Becareful when choosing the dip option as in some cases, it can put an otherwise already stressed animal over the edge. I am unfamiliar with Terry B's recommendation (chloroquine phosphate)so Ill leave any comments about that to him.

Cheers
Steve