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Old 11-17-2005, 07:16 PM   #11
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I think you need to be open. A cloudy eye is not always a ick problem. I have seen many cases where a viral or bacterial problem caused a cloudy eye or two. Not every fish problem is ick related. When I stated my opinion about FW dips that was from my experience. And I beg to differ with you that the only way to get them off is a FW dip. What causes you to think that your experience is better than mine or anybody elses. You stated your opinion. I stated mine and others stated theirs. Leave it at that and dont think you are the only one right. Like I always say Opinions are like armpits. We have two and they both stink. I dont care what kind of expert you are, I just know from my personal experience what has worked for me.
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Old 11-17-2005, 08:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melosu58
A cloudy eye is not always a ick problem.
I think you need to pay attention. This discussion has nothing to do with ich.
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Old 11-17-2005, 10:02 PM   #13
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Steve...be open to learning something that is very important in marine fish. It's a growing problem and the only way to control it on the market is to be aware and treat appropriately. A formalin bath without freshwater will NOT kill these parasites. In fact...formalin isn't meant to kill the parasite. It's meant to treat for the diseases these parasites can leave in their hosts. It's a preventative measure for the most part. Now if you treat the disease without treating the origin of the disease...then it returns because the element creating the disease in the first place may still be present. High nitrate would amplify the problem, but doesn't mean high nitrates is the origin.
You obviously haven't learned very much in your chosen employment field. How can you recommend a treatment for something you can't even remember the name of? Formalin is a very effective treatment for certain external parasites. FW+Formalin usually ends up in a dead fish so I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. SW formalin baths are an option as is praziquantel being a good alternative. FW dips are usually the weakest form of remedy and generally not always effective.

As far as the symptomes described, just because the fish species is more prone to a certain malady does not predispose that all should be lumped into the same category automatically with the exception of a few species. The symptoms conveyed thus far are indicitive of a great many ailments and nothing conclusive can or should be drawn from it at this point. Given the information, the best conclusion is bacterial, not parasitic of which water quality and husbandry is directly related. You need to look at the whole picture before making decisions of this type, not simpley jumping to conclusions because you've treated something in the past with similar symptoms.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:21 AM   #14
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...and though I don't have the name...I do remember the article and have described this parasite in detail with the exception of the name. I've been searching for this article for years so I can get a name. We all know how tedious it can be to remember most of these scientific names.

I've mentioned in the past that once I do find the article, this forum will be the first place to recieve it. These parasites create the problems you most often see in the trade. SW dips will not to a **** thing to these parasites with or without formalin. They are cirular, ranging in size that I've seen from really small to up about 1/2 and inch. Pretty big sometimes. They are natural to the lumberjack fish. Transparent except when expose to freshwater when they die.

Angels are not the only marine fish they are commonly seen on. They have been seen on all kinds of fish, including those that can't be FW dipped. Know what happens to them? They die. We won't dip them in FW, but try other ways, but they always end up dead because we cannot kill these parasites any other way.

The bacterial infections you are describing, as stated in a previous post, can be caused by these parasites and those in the know do know that a FW dip is the only way to rid the source of these infections. If the fish ends up not having these bugs on them, then great. You know that's one less thing to worry about and the fish can go directly into treatment for it's ailment. But what if they are present? Would you not want to know? You'll only know if the fish is dipped in FW. All the fish this person has can withstand a quick little FW bath. If any of these fish end up dying from the dip, then it was going to die anyway.

This is more than something I've dealt with in the past. It's something I continue to deal with and deal with on a regular basis and have for several years.

It's not jumping to conclusions either. It's realistic and very probable that her angel had these parasites....and if not, this person would know for certain by dipping the fish in FW and not have anything fall off. As stated in the first post...

FW dips are a postivie way to confirm or deny the presence of these parasites.
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:58 AM   #15
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You and I have gone circles on this one before. You couldn't prove yourself then and you've done little to change that here...

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewto...=325593#325593

You speak of a mysterious lumberjack fish... what species?, and article you can't find or reference, a unnamed Monogenea and a treatment/test that could confirm the presence of most any ectoparasite.

Please define disease in this context for me. In the english language that is quite encompassing. What exact disease is being cured here?

If this problem in your words... "This is more than something I've dealt with in the past. It's something I continue to deal with and deal with on a regular basis and have for several years."... is so prevalent and such a problem in the "aquarium trade", how come you know so little about it?

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Old 11-18-2005, 05:12 AM   #16
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How I know about these parasites all started when I began working for bossman about 6 or 7 years ago. I went to LA with him every week to get marine fish from his warehouse and others in the area. There was a problem with marine fish dying in larger numbers with numerous infections from everywhere with those same symptoms and like everyone else, treated for viral and bacterial diseases, but it wasn’t going away. Problems persisited on the wholesale/retail end. Most of these issues don’t reach the retail/consumer end. The fish would die long before reaching a private tank. Many before reaching a retail store. Many of the larger retail stores of Petco and Petsmart at this time were giving up their marine section because of these same problems.

After a few years of battling these diseases and trying all sorts of treatments, we came across this article. There were actually two articles. I think one article was published in FAMA magazine. I looked on their website to find past issues, but only goes back about 2 years. I need a three to four year history and my email went unanswered. I remember the articles, but not the name of the parasite. After reading about this bug and about FW dipping, we started to do just that on the fish that were showing these symptoms and to our surprise all these little bugs came falling off of most of them. We never would have known if it weren’t for the literature available, which apparently is a big PITA to find. If you have any parasite references I can browse, please share.

Just like you, we treated for the obvious, but not realizing the underlying cause until it was brought to our attention.

Now we treat most of the new fish after they’ve relaxed at the warehouse with routine FW dips. Some other wholesale warehouses have also taken up the practice. The death of our marine fish and those at wholesale warehouses that practice FW dipping dropped dramatically because now we are aware of this parasite and know how to get rid of the organism that was reaping this havoc on marine fish.

I don’t know the particulars of exactly what diseases they cause, but most likely protozoan like Brooklynella is. I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that these parasites produce a disease that have such symptoms being it was these fish the bugs were falling off from the most.

Unfortunately this information hasn’t really reached the consumer end. Many on the retail end still are not aware of this parasite. Another unfortunate thing is that there are many wholesalers that don’t bother with disease preventatives or treatments of any kind on their fish. This is when fish with these parasites do make it into the private tank if the retailer doesn’t make preventative measures as well.

A disease in my definition is the product of organisms attacking and destroying cells. Most origins of diseases link back to a parasite of some kind.

THe 'Lumberjack' fish (may be 'lamberjack') is more of a nickname of a marine fish Japanese fishing fleets often harvest. The parasite itself, if I remember correctly originates in the Carribean. The harvesting of these fish all over the world has spread this parasite to nearly all oceans. That's what one article had to say.

Just because I can't remember the name of a parasite doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means I can't remember the name. Next time I get the opportunity to do so, I'll try to take some photos. I can only photograph the parasites after the fish has been dipped. Can't see them otherwise.

If you ever come across photos of perfectly round transparent trematodes, please share. Come hell or high water, I'll eventually come across a name.
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The oceans surely would swallow us before a rock comes down to smite the planet of it's life.
Nov/2004
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Old 11-18-2005, 10:47 AM   #17
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I would strongly suggest you go back to the drawing board on this one. Your drawing conclusions with no specific evidence. If you ever come across this article (which I doubt) I'm sure you will be more than happy to link to it. The description of what your conveying fits no particular worm problem but best described as either monogeneans or nematodes. If FW showed any possitive results, most likely the monogenean. All you most likely did was alleviate the symptoms, not cure the parasite. As to your theory on causing other diseases, again completely false. A worm infestation cannot bring about another parasite. It can however lower the immune response enough to allow an already present parasite take hold.

What you have done basically is taken a shotgun approach to a problem you can't completely solve or identify and have simpley made up your mind as to it's cause. You yourself said in that earlier thread the FW dip was folowed up by a formalin bath. If you have any hope of getting this solved, I would suggest getting several scrapings from several different infested fish or sending any dead fish for necropsy to have the particular organism identified properly. If your going to use a shotgun approach, I would suggest the use of Parziquatel based meds instead. It will have far greater impact and actually effect a cure not simpley mask the problem for someone to deal with later. This would be effective on Monogenea, Nematoda, Cestode and Digenean.

As far as your mystery fish is concerned, I would suggest looking at an amberjack. Just a guess but the closest I could think of with the widest ranging population.

Cheers
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Old 11-18-2005, 10:50 AM   #18
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To the original poster of this thread (bpeitzke) I sincerely appologize for your topic being so miserabley side tracked. If you wish your topic to be seperated into it's original thread, please say the word, I would be more than happy to accomodate you. If you have found any of this discussion helpful, I will leave it as is.

Again, my appologies.
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Old 11-18-2005, 06:33 PM   #19
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Know what Steve...why don't you do some research instead of knocking me about something you do not know about. And that's it...the Amberjack.

I find you have been somewhat rude on the subject as before by making judgemental comments. The original poster has enough info. to make their own choice. You don't need to continue knocking down advice on an issue you are lacking info. on without doing any research yourself.

Not everyone is going to do scrappings and send out for necropsies. I can't afford it. We are dealing with the general public most which can't afford it or won't spend the money for it. A simple three to five minute FW bath will show if a fish is infected with these parasites without excessive costs. Once the parasites are removed and if there isn't too much damage to the fish, they can be saved with medications. If the parasites are absent, then you know to look elsewhere for the problem.

Parasites are notorious of being origins of disease; trematodes are no exception.

Enough has been said on this thread. If you wish to continue this debate...in a mature matter (without judgemental comments) then start a new thread.
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Old 11-18-2005, 08:22 PM   #20
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I have been reading this thread daily now. Being someone that went to law school but grew a conscience I can not help but make a comment on it.
bpeitzke: I can not sit here a let one of the best sources of SW information, disease or otherwise get badgered alone any longer. Ask any of the regulars or advisors on this site about Steve-s. He is " 8) THE MAN"
Quote:
why don't you do some research instead of knocking me about something you do not know about
Steve supplied scientific names as well as treatments for every disease or parasite he named. You are the one with no reference/article or names to back up anything you have stated.

Quote:
Not everyone is going to do scrappings and send out for necropsies. I can't afford it
from you own post.
Quote:
Many of the larger retail stores of Petco and Petsmart at this time were giving up their marine section because of these same problems.
I am sure these companies could afford a few thousand for some lab work. Last time I checked they still had SW items.

I could comment endlessly about comments in this thread but I am honestly to lazy and tired to do so. In short Steve-s has helped me more times than I can count on my hands and toes. He has NEVER given me bad information. I am sure Fluff, Quarryshark, Hara, Lando and other advisors and regulars could say the same.

TCTFish: sorry if this makes you mad but my common sense is taking over. Maybe if I have a few drinks I will be more inclined to listen. (PS. I do not drink) If you ever find that article from 4 years ago please post it.
Steve-s: I know you are a big boy and can take care of yourself. I guess I am just a glutton for punishment.
bpeitzke: Sorry you lost your fish but after reading these post I think you know who to listen to on here.
I am going to go hide now.
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