Sick Starfish

[itafx]

I got a chocolate starfish and 2 clown perculas from the LFS. I only had one SW tank, and had to QT them together. The perculas had a strong outburst of ich the next AM and I used "copper safe" for the tank. Now the perculas are better, but the starfish looks like it's almost dead. Are starfish sensitive to Coppersafe?

 

[ccCapt]

Yes. Copper will kill any and all inverts.

 

[itafx]

I have a sand crab in the same tank that's still vibrant and strong.

 

[Sadielynn]

How did you transfer the star they are not to be exposed to air .... Also some times the copper will affect diffrent animals diffrently ... But copper safe is not reef safe or invert safe.. What are your copper levels this needs to be tested as it will spike and get to toxic levels , tho inverts have a LOW tolorance to copper

 

[roka64]

I agree, that will limit you on not putting anymore inverts in your tank. You can try to run carbon to try to remove as much as you can, but most of it is probably absorbed into just about everything in your tank, including sand, rock, seals, filter media. You may want to run some Bio Chem Zorb http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4202&rel=1, this will remove heavy metals. I have never used it so I can't speak on it's effectiveness....

 

[melosu58]

Stars are more suseptable to copper then other inverts but they all should not be exposed to that stuff. Sorry, Bad choice on the copper safe with inverts.

 

[itafx]

I put the starfish directly in the tank after acclimating in the bag. I did not put the water in, but only the starfish. If the starfish was exposed to air, it was for less than 1 second.

So then how do you treat SW fish for ich? I know the ideal way would be to have a separate QT tank. But in my case, I had only 1 SW tank.

 

[usmcmarc]

Your in the same boat I was in. I made a makeshift QT from a plastic tote. Threw in my GAC bag from the main tank (to seed QT with bacteria) and a few pieces of PVC, powerhead, heater and a cheap HOB filter. Had to cycle it. Then after the cycle was over, I could put the fish in it and let the main tank fallow while treating the fish in the QT. I got lucky in the fact that nothing died while waiting for the QT to cycle.

 

[Sadielynn]

Starfish are not suseptiable to ich try to target feed him to see if you can get him to eat ... Stars once sick are difficult at best to "cure" But since you dosed with copper it will be difficult to ever house inverts as it will be in the rocks, sand and the seams of the silicone on the tank..... and will continue to leach out over time ...Get a copper test kit and see what your readings are at also add the bio chem zorb (replace frequently ) replace all filter pads and start doing some water changes to see if you can get your copper to 0. I would still worry about it leaching from the rocks and the sand tho

 

[itafx]

Here is the next chapter in the story. The starfish died. But I aquired 30 gallon tank, so I'm setting it up as my main SW tank and plan to rehab the 20 gallon I was using for the SW QT tank. I plan transfer the inbabitants to the 30 gallon, get rid of the substrate and any calcium based contents like shells in the 20 gallon, and boil and reuse the rocks. Sadder but wiser. At least a little bit wiser I hope...

 

[Sadielynn]

Boiling will do nothing other than kill off all bacteria and critters that are in them... It will not remove copper or meds that can leech back into your new tank....
Your best route would be to get new LR , LS(or dry sand I use and recommend the wet since it sinks easier and does not require rinsing )
Cycle out your tank and wait ... Then slowly add your live stock back in . Take the old tank wash well and set it up as a QT or hosp tank use PVC pipe pieces to give hiding spots to your fish....Sorry to hear about your starfish

 

[roka64]

I agree, just about anything that was in the tank when you used the meds will leach the copper back into any new system. This includes phs, filters, filter media, sand, rock and about anything else. You MIGHT be able to find some sort of copper removing filter media like Bio Chem Zorb http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4202&rel=1. I have never used copper or this product so I don't know how well it works.....

 

[ccCapt]

I agree with the others. That copper got sucked into those rocks and I wouldn't use them in a tank with inverts and corals. Maybe good for a fo tank, but then again, you have a crab that survived the copper treatment, so who knows.

 

[itafx]

I can see copper being absorbed into porus things, but not igneous rock. I don't have any LR and like I said above, I'm planning to trash my LS and replace it with new. Maybe I'll try cleaning and leaching out any copper that may have attached to the hard surfaces, but it shouldn't be much if any. If something can leach in, it ought to be able to leach back out... One can't have one's cake and eat it too..

 

[melosu58]

One can't have one's cake and eat it too..

This does not explain anything from this post. There are many things that can aquire or leach into something and not come back out unless circumstances dictate it too. Chemical make up and chems in areas of rock that are not easily or readily accessable are but a few examples. Your above statement is not very reliable in SW aquaria. Not trying to be ugly but you recieved some very good advice from some very good people.

 

[cmor1701d]

Rock IS porous. Please take the advice you’ve been given by some very knowledgeable people and don’t re-use anything in the 30 gallon tank.

 

[Sadielynn]

All rock is porous even igneous rock.... However I would not use that rock in a salt tank my reason for this is that it has "colors " to it that indicate that there certian metals and minerals in it to give it its "coloration" That could be another reason for the stars demise ... I would only use "LR" ....period ... With out trying to sound too harsh it sounds like you have a bit more reading to do before you continue with this hobby ... there is alot to be learned and even more to be gained by studing ,, it is understandable to want it and want it now . I dont know of any folks out there in salt that didnt feel that way at some point , but most of us got to a point where throwing good money after bad was just NOT in the cards .... I have been doing this for a mere 4 years or so and I still read learn and read some more then when I am sick of reading I read a bit more ... I still have my "newbie" books that I refer to frequently when in doubt ...My theroy is that when in doubt read it out ... there is bound to be some one that has come across the same question or problems ....I document every thing and I mean every thing why ? so that if a problem arisies I know the cause or atleast have a starting point , it also keeps my check book happy and a happier husband because I dont ask to buy.... or I dont keep making the same mistakes ... I also note milestones and small goals , I document every thing ! I think that you need to refocus on your goals long term and short term and what you expect from this tank....before you continue in this hobby

 

[itafx]

Rock IS porous. Please take the advice you’ve been given by some very knowledgeable people and don’t re-use anything in the 30 gallon tank.

That is like saying glass IS porous. I guess one could call anything porous if viewed with enough magnification, but that's really taking the whole thing out of context. I admit that there is a wide variation in the porosity of different rock types in the broad classification of igneous rock. It was a poor use of the term. However, the point remains valid that some rocks have very low porosity approaching or even exceeding the smoothness of glass. Also if a foreign substance can leach into a material, then by reversing the process, it must be able to leach out. And, too, if it can't leach out, then it can't harm the organisms in the water.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

itafx,

Obviously you can do what you want, and it sounds like you will. But there are folks here that have either done the same thing you're contemplating, or know someone who has. And the outcome hasn't been good. And they're trying to relay that info to you. Copper doesn't go away. While I understand your logic, all processes are not reversible.

 

[itafx]

itafx,

all processes are not reversible.

And that makes sense too. I gravitate toward pithy discussions with logic, analysis and experimental results. I gravitate away from the idea of "trust me because I'm the guru." BTW I decided to trash most or all of what was in the poisoned tank (except live inhabitants of course). I set up a new 30 gal, and transferred the perculas to it. I used filter media from a cycled tank to get that started. I'm now setting up a 20 gal for the SW quarantine tank. When that is finished, I plan to empty the old SW 20 gal tank and convert it over to FW. I was very fortunate to obtain a used 29 gal, 20 gal, 10 gal, and a lot of equipment for $50 and now I have some flexibility that I didn't have before. Just because I question advice when it isn't well supported, that doesn't mean I'm not listening.