The old Flame Angel trouble again

[AMANIQU77]

Hello folks. I've had the flame angel for more than 4 months now. It's been grazing off of algea on the rocks. It loves to stay behind rocks, which I thought would be normal. Finally one day, I saw that the gill flaps are a bit elevated from the gills. The mouth has some sort of cotton-looking thing. Ill try to post pictures soon.

Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20, pH 8.3, sg 1.024, and temp 81F. Tank's been existing for one year 2 months now. 70 lbs of LR, 2 Powerfilter 60 HOBs, Prizm skimmer, and Aquaclear 4000 PH with in-tank filter attachment.

1.5" Maroon clown, 2" picasso, 2" Blue hippo tang.

Any guesses and any solutions? Thank you in advance for suggestions and comments.

 

[TCTFish]

The angel definately should be put in a hospital tank ASAP. The picasso could be pestering it...hard to say without really seeing their behavior...both day and night. Could also have gill flukes. Look around to see if you notice any bugs around the gills. The cottony stuff is generally a good sign of a fungal infection. They are usually secondary from wounds becoming infected.

Temp should be lowered to 76 degrees slowly. 81 degrees is a bit on the high side for marine. Take control of nitrates before they take control of you. 20 ppm isn't bad, but with a picasso in there, that can change quickly.

As of treatment...you won't be able to in the main tank without killing the live rock, so a hospital tank fitted with a simple air pump operated sponge filter, a heater, and a hide out for the fish is needed. A five gallon bucket if you don't have anything else will do. Try to use what you can of the tank water in the hospital tank to ease stress.

I would treat with Malachite Green for the infection. If the fish has bugs too, then you'd have to treat for the bugs as well.

Keep us informed.

 

[steve-s]

At this point you do not know what you are treating so a gunbshot aproach is more likely to do harm than good. If you have a cycled QT, that could very well be the best place for it so it can recover unhindered. Open gill flaps in and of itself are not a given for the presence of a parasite but can be a "symptom", something to definately keep an eye on. As for the fungus, highly unlikely and extremely rare in marine aquaria. More commonly it will be bacterial or even more common considering the water conditions is Lymphocystis.

I would strongly urge against the use of Malachite green as it is a very potent carcenogen and can harm the fish quite easily. Nasty stuff really & not recommended for much if anything. If placed in a QT where it can be properly obsrved and the ailment diagnosed accurately, you will have a much better time of dealing with this.

Cheers
Steve

 

[TCTFish]

I was considering the fact that the fuzz is ont he mouth of the fish. Not a too likely place for lymph. That I always see on the body and usually on the fins. No one can be sure without at least a photo.

If you are not keen on using chemical based meds for the fish, you can try using a bit of Melafix as a temporary treatment of something you do not know an ID of. A bit of Stress Coat helps to prevent the loss of electrolites while the fish is stressed.

 

[AMANIQU77]

Thank you both for your suggestions. A day after, I saw the flame hanging by the inlet prefilter of my HOB. It is still breathing but swims upside down. Gills are very swollen. It looks like it is in pain and in a condition beyond recovery. So I ended up euthanizing the fish.

I am so bummed out right now.....not just because of its price, at least not that at all....but I really take this hobby seriously and when that happens, I feel bad for the animal.....and I even feel bad for myself. I just failed the flame angel....

I have a good feeling the trigger is the reason because everyone else (maroon and blue hippo tang) is pretty peaceful. The trigger will be donated this week for store credit....this really sucks....

 

[steve-s]

Sorry for your loss

Future reference, if you plan on aquiring more fish, please get a QT set up and cycled first. It will make these types of issues much easier to deal with and less risk to the existing population.

I was considering the fact that the fuzz is ont he mouth of the fish. Not a too likely place for lymph. That I always see on the body and usually on the fins.

Lymphocystis can appear anywhere on the fish. The fins are just more common, especially where water quality/stress may be an issue. It will affect any surface of the fish except on the eye. Mouth, gill plates, fins, body etc. Mouth and gill areas are also quite common in Angels. The location of this type of ailment is not a identifiable marker though.

Cheers
Steve

 

[TCTFish]

I agree. Having a QT readily available for newbies is pretty much a must in this hobby. New fish should always go in for about two weeks to ensure the fish is healthy and strong enough to be introduced. It also helps when a fih is already well established. Something goes wrong, they can be plucked out and set up in the QT immediately.

Try not to take it too hard. Many fish end up dying in captivity and may not be any fault of the keeper. If anything, we learn and can apply what we learn to the next trial.

BTW...Steve...isn't Lymph viral? From what I was explained by someone who's really into their marine, the most anyone can do about Lymph is to either pick it off until it stops coming back or just let the fish deal with it until it goes away. What's your input on that?

 

[steve-s]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=43

Cheers
Steve

 

[TCTFish]

While reading, I thought back to the poster's water quality. It really isn't bad according to the numbers given. I ruled out water quality as a factor...mainly because the parameters given are within good range and the fish isn't new, so I ruled out poor water quality before purchase at the LFS. The advice on nitrate is to prevent it from going higher. Isolation is for a just in case deal if one is unsure of what is going on. With a photo I'd be able to tell right away if it were due to a wound or Lymph. I also considered the picasso's aggressive behavior. The other fish are less likely to do damage like that. If the gills were fine and the fish swimming and eating normally with this white fuzzy stuff, then yes, I would have first suspected Lymph.

Anyway. Thanks for the info. on lymph. I'll hang onto it for reference So it is viral. That's what I wanted to confirm.

 

[AMANIQU77]

Wow, then I am really holding my breath while observing them these coming days....if the thing is viral, I don't want none of that to transfer over to the tang....

 

[TCTFish]

The lymph virus is not a danger to other inhabitants as far as I know. It may depend on the type of transmission the virus takes. We know from mammal viruses that some are hard to transmit due to the form of transmission from one host to another. FIV...a feline virus can only be transmitted blood to blood, like AIDS. Rabies, it's bodily fluids to blood (like saliva from a rabid bite).

I remember asking if it was important to isolate a lymph case and he said no. Just pick it off till it stops coming back.

 

[steve-s]

Just pick it off till it stops coming back.

I would actually not recommend that unless the fish's eating/breathing ability was being hampered. Lymphocystis is not life threatening or damaging otherwise so it is an uneccessary and dangerous step. Good/improved water quality, diet and reduced stress are the key factors in beating this particular affliction. Vitamin soaked foods and the use of Beta Glucan being very effective as well.

Removing the growth otherwise may lead to bacterial infections and does nothing for the stress and well being of the fish.

Cheers
Steve

 

[notyelo]

Sorry for your loss

I am new at the saltwater tank ,however I was rasied in Fla. and started with saltwater fish. I had them for many years and never had problems maybe due to the fact that I changed tank with fresk ocean water every two weeks. I write this because now in Atl. I have to learn how to do it right. My one and last fish to be placed in my tank was to be a Flame Angel. I have had my tank set up for a year and all fish are healthy. So I purchased a Flame Angel only for it to do exactly what your fish did with in a week. I was hurt and felt the same as you. I pride myself on watching the water levels I have even been accused of making it a science and not a hobby. Well, I read as much as I could about a Flame Angel and bought another one. I could find no reason why the first one died. I lost the second one. Same way. This was heart breaking. I was helpless. After asking a endless number of questions I thought about something kind of strange. The best fish in my tank that have lived no matter what, Even when I had power loss for two days. Came from a fish store 40 miles from my house. The closest store which is always dirty and I find dead fish in there tanks from time to time is only 15 miles from my house. I have bought many fish from them and about 50% have survived. The ones I managed to save have grow very healthy. They were never very nice looking when I purchased them and I figure I was saving them from the stores lack of caring. Long story short I went back to the store 40 miles away a bought a third Angel. Tiger is just as happy as a pea in a pod. I have asked every question on what was it that killed the other two and can find no answers. I believe there must be a thousand reasons one would die. All we can do is try to make sure everything in the tank is in harmony and as perfect a place to live, then it will be up to nature. Hope you find another Angel and sorry you have to take a fish back. I have been through that too.