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Old 12-22-2003, 03:01 PM   #11
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Yeah, Ok, hmmm. so, what you are saying is that from this persons findings, that it is set in stone? I don't think so, and I will back my stuff on personal experience as well as every other fish owner that I have come in contact with that professes the same results with raised temps FW or SW. I sincerely doubt coincedence I do not believe in that. Everything happens for a reason. And I did nothing else to my tank as well as others, to solve the problem other than raise my temp. So end of discussion. I am not sold on your idea or findings.
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Old 12-22-2003, 06:25 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by timbo2
Yeah, Ok, hmmm. so, what you are saying is that from this persons findings, that it is set in stone? I don't think so, and I will back my stuff on personal experience as well as every other fish owner that I have come in contact with that professes the same results with raised temps FW or SW. .
I completley agree with Terry B. Temps can play a role to a certain degree with the speed in which the parasite multiplies but it will have zero effect on it's demise as the sole source of eradication. I too would find these kinds of results coincidental and lack proper documentation of accurate events. I would also highly doubt that in these cases, raising the temp was the only steps taken in attemps to be rid of the parasite.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 12-23-2003, 12:49 AM   #13
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I would say that in ALL of my saltwater tanks, ich has been pre empted with 84 degree water. I never have ich, I have bought fish with ich and put them directly in my tank. The ich clears within a day or two never to be seen again. Once may be coincidence. Multiple times is not. Tanks kept at this temp include 175 show reef, 100, 150, 5 at 55 a 46, a 43 and a 30 gallon. It is not coincidence when you can repeat the result multiple times.
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Old 12-23-2003, 02:28 AM   #14
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Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn’t mean that your idea is correct. Dr. Noga’s statement is based on his experience and a plethora of scientific literature and studies. The fact is that Cryptocaryon irritans is pathogenic at 86F. If you want to compare personal experience, I have been keeping marine aquariums for 30 years. I also am a moderator for one of the most active marine fish disease forums on the Internet and I have been helping people with fish disease problems there and elsewhere on the Internet for many years. This is not the first time I have come across your argument that SW ich can be cured by raising the temperature to 86F. The idea comes from using temperature manipulation to treat FW ich. If you want to check my references then you can find dozens of them at the end of the articles that I wrote for Advanced Aquarist Online magazine. Most of those references are from scientific journals on the subject of Cryptocaryon irritans, have you read any of them? Your theory has already been tested in scientific trials and it failed.
If you want to prove your point then give us your references that back up your opinion. You said that science proves that you are right so you shouldn’t have any trouble coming up with the scientific literature to prove it. I won’t hold my breath because I don’t think you will find any. If you sincerely want to check out my references then I will gladly provide them. You are going to need a comfortable chair because it is going to be a very long read.
As far as pre-empting an ich infection by raising the temperature, you probably have been lucky. This may be a matter of misdiagnosing the problem, just the fact that ich sometimes goes away on its own, or something else. If you understood the life cycle of ich and how to treat it then you would know that nothing cures it in a day or two. To cure ich you need to interrupt the life cycle of the parasite at one stage or another. It is the natural course of the parasites life cycle to fall off the fish before it can reproduce.
Terry B
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Old 12-23-2003, 12:49 PM   #15
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First of all, your tone is condescending and insulting and there is no need for it. Now that that is behind me I will say this. I do not have the time, nor the desire to pour through scientific journals, nor the chutzpah to pretend to understand them even if I had the time. My time is better spent in my tanks. My references are my experiences which are 10 times more valid and valuable to me than scientific journals are.

My opinon is that whatever happens (scientifically) when the heat goes up and the ich falls off the fish, is not relevant to me nor my fish. What is relevant is whether or not it returns.
Bottom line is that it doesnt. Nor does it for a heck of a lot of other people.
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Old 12-23-2003, 02:36 PM   #16
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Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn’t mean that your idea is correct.
Touche'
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Old 12-24-2003, 04:47 AM   #17
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Sometimes it is difficult to disagree with someone and not offend them. Too bad that you disregard scientific fact. I have come in contact with other people that had your opinion in the past and they learned in time (and told me so) that raising the temperature does not cure SW ich. If you ever have a verifiable infection with ich in your tank then I hope you keep what I had to say in mind so that you have a backup plan in place to save your fish when raising the temp fails to do the job.
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Old 12-24-2003, 07:15 AM   #18
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TerryB, first of all, I would like to take this time to say that there are many ways to get rid of ICH and everyone in this hobby has done many different things to get rid of it. Hyposalinity, Temp Raising, Copper, Formalin, malachite Green Sp?, etc.. None have been 100% effective in eradicating ICH. It is still pretty much an incomplete science. After reviewing this thread again, I see that you made valid points, and I also see that I never said that the temp should be raised to 86*. I said 82-84. In saying that raising the temp, I said it would end it. I only speak from my experience and findings as I said, from other fish and reef keepers that have fought the same battle and won so far. I do not advocate using copper or formaldehyde to get rid of parasites. There are more natural ways of doing it.. When I had 4 fish consumed by the evil snow last year, I read an article (I tried looking for it no good on the search) that explained that raising the temp to 84* would more than triple the life cycle and thus end the cycle completely. I tell you and Steve-S, that being that it was the Only Thing! I did to get rid of the ICH, it worked flawlessly and in a matter of a few weeks, the fish were back to beautiful bodies and happy.... So, in your endeavors to try and teach people about yours and others findings on ICH and ways to get rid of it... Don't forget that there are others in this hobby that have been keeping fish for as many years as you have that still to this day do not use copper and other foreign medicines to treat the ICH. I have to end this saying that you have written a good article on this subject..I also have to tell you, just as with any other author on Fish Keeping and such, you take what you can use, and leave the rest. Someone else may get something out of this, which I hope they will, and have an ICH free tank for life. No matter what method they choose...Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
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Old 12-25-2003, 05:37 AM   #19
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Timbo2,
Yes, there are many purported treatments for ich. Unfortunately, most of them do not work consistently, or worse yet do not work at all. There are only a few treatments that work consistently and they have all been proven in scientific trials. Those few treatments that are actually reliable cures for ich are: copper, hyposalinity and the transfer method. All of the others are hit or miss or worse. The only alternative treatments that are really even worth a mention are feeding the fish garlic soaked foods and a powerful UV light. Even the best alternative treatments are not consistent. Formalin does not work that well because it is so dangerous. It must be maintained at a therapeutic level for too long. Formaldehyde is highly toxic and immunosuppressive. IMO, formalin should only be used in a dip and even then it will not cure ich as the only treatment. Malachite green is also toxic to fish and immunosuppressive, especially to small fish. It simply does not work well.
I disagree with your statement that none of the treatments work consistently or even 100%. In laboratory studies, copper, hyposalinity and the transfer method all work very consistently when administered correctly. Cryptocaryon irritans has been the subject of intense study by the scientific community and it is very well understood. I have to agree with the idea of not advocating the use of copper or formalin to treat ich, because there are better ways. Hyposalinity and the transfer method both work extremely well for wiping out ich. However, the transfer method has been too stressful on the fish meaning that the survival rate is not satisfactory IMO. With a traditional transfer method of treatment the fish may be cured but the stress of all that handling required can be enough to kill the fish. That is why I worked out a way to refine the transfer method making it a more suitable treatment and improving the survival and cure rate. Hyposalinity remains to be the treatment of choice as it has shown to be highly successful at destroying the parasite while the fish are not weakened of stressed by the treatment.
Oftentimes when any of the other purported treatments appear to work (and that is not often enough) it is a matter of misdiagnosis or the fish developing some level of acquired immunity. Acquired immunity may very well explain why some of the so-called reef safe medications appear to work sometimes. Unfortunately they don’t work often enough.
Not all treatments are equal. I choose only to recommend those treatments that work consistently. After all, I feel that it is our responsibility to use those treatments that offer the highest chance of success. IMO, and in that of the scientific community hyposalinity is the treatment of choice.
Terry B
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Old 12-27-2003, 12:07 AM   #20
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From all the readings I have done, my understanding is that ICH is almost in evitable especially in amateur aquarists tanks. Most fish do not get it because they are healthy, but as soon as stress increases they succumb to it. So if you can keep ammonia low and all other chemicals in balance and if your fish are fed in proper manner, then ICH will not be a problem. 3 weeks ago one of my chromis started getting ICH, followed by 3 spotted damsel who kept fighting all other fish especially the chromis. I had medication running for over a week and chromis seemed to improve. I took off all the rocks, caught the 3 stripped damsel and 3 spotted damsel who caused most stress to other fish. Kept them in separate breeding tanks within the 65gal aquarium. I noticed other fish get better. Now no fish has ICH and I gave away the 3 spotted damsel. 3 striped damsel managed to get back in aquarium but died when ammonia rose high. I used cycle and waste control to bring my aquarium to current perfect balance in all chemical levels.

I hope this helps
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Kulamsam
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