very sad day...my true percula is dead...
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sdellin
Aquarium Advice Addict
Do yourself a favor and read the instructions carefully on the medication you're using. It should state whether or not it is safe or unsafe for inverts. Copper is never safe for inverts. The lfs will sell you what they think you need, but they may assume you have a quarantine tank set up.
You should set up a quarantine tank for sick fish or newly purchased fish. Any new fish you buy should be placed into the quarantine tank for at least 3-4 weeks after purchase before being introduced to the main tank. That way you can watch it for signs of illness. A 10 gallon tank with a simple HOB filter and a heater will do, you can also add a very small powerhead if you can find one, check drsfostersmith.com if your lfs does not sell small ones. There is an article on quarantine tanks on this forum in the "Articles" section.
You should also purchase a book, like "PocketExpert Guide for Marine Fishes" and "PocketExpert Guide for Marine Invertebrates" or other similar books so that you have something to refer to BEFORE making purchases. Most clowns and tangs cannot be mixed. Your regal tangs will likely fight when they are adults. The books mentioned will also tell you how easy or difficult each fish is to keep. You should choose fish that are good for beginners until you aquire more experience. Also, ask the lfs if you can add two of the same fish and tell them what other fish are in your tank before making a purchase.
Best of luck in the future and I'm really sorry about your loss.
You should set up a quarantine tank for sick fish or newly purchased fish. Any new fish you buy should be placed into the quarantine tank for at least 3-4 weeks after purchase before being introduced to the main tank. That way you can watch it for signs of illness. A 10 gallon tank with a simple HOB filter and a heater will do, you can also add a very small powerhead if you can find one, check drsfostersmith.com if your lfs does not sell small ones. There is an article on quarantine tanks on this forum in the "Articles" section.
You should also purchase a book, like "PocketExpert Guide for Marine Fishes" and "PocketExpert Guide for Marine Invertebrates" or other similar books so that you have something to refer to BEFORE making purchases. Most clowns and tangs cannot be mixed. Your regal tangs will likely fight when they are adults. The books mentioned will also tell you how easy or difficult each fish is to keep. You should choose fish that are good for beginners until you aquire more experience. Also, ask the lfs if you can add two of the same fish and tell them what other fish are in your tank before making a purchase.
Best of luck in the future and I'm really sorry about your loss.
the lfs guy told me to put 1.5 - 2oz of the bottle since you are supposed to use 2 oz. per 20 gallons.
i looked at the instructions and it did have a warning for snails and inverts, but when i bought the medicine i just took the LFS guy's advice and was in such a rush i didnt get a chance to read the directions on my own. i only go to 2 fish stores to buy my fish and equipment and they know exactly what i have because i ask 10000 questions every time i buy something.
but i was advised on this board to get a book on marine fish and i didn't, so i guess ultimately it is my fault, although i would expect people who run fish stores to know these kind of things. that is what frustrates me the most.
i was looking at my clarkii today and i'm pretty sure he is going to be dead by tomorrow morning. he looked extremely sick and looked like he was breathing really fast. i also noticed a big white spot on the side of his body. i did research on 'ick' and the description was small white spots, so i dont know if they are the same.
i looked at the instructions and it did have a warning for snails and inverts, but when i bought the medicine i just took the LFS guy's advice and was in such a rush i didnt get a chance to read the directions on my own. i only go to 2 fish stores to buy my fish and equipment and they know exactly what i have because i ask 10000 questions every time i buy something.
but i was advised on this board to get a book on marine fish and i didn't, so i guess ultimately it is my fault, although i would expect people who run fish stores to know these kind of things. that is what frustrates me the most.
i was looking at my clarkii today and i'm pretty sure he is going to be dead by tomorrow morning. he looked extremely sick and looked like he was breathing really fast. i also noticed a big white spot on the side of his body. i did research on 'ick' and the description was small white spots, so i dont know if they are the same.
well, my clarkii was found dead this morning, which is what i exprected.
now the only fish i have left are the goby (which is acting normal), 2 blue tangs (seems to be acting normal), and my maroon clown (just hides in the corner). i do not see any of the same signs from my maroon that i did for the percula and clarkii, so i'm hoping he will live, although the odds are against me. is there a way i can save him, or is it too late?
now the only fish i have left are the goby (which is acting normal), 2 blue tangs (seems to be acting normal), and my maroon clown (just hides in the corner). i do not see any of the same signs from my maroon that i did for the percula and clarkii, so i'm hoping he will live, although the odds are against me. is there a way i can save him, or is it too late?
steve r
Aquarium Advice FINatic
i tried to read all the posts so if i repeat something sorry.
where to begin, wow! well the damage is done. we have all made mistakes and i am sorry for loss. it is pretty common to get bad advice from the LFS.
first, a 40g is too small for any tang regardless of size.
mixing clowns is a bad idea in anything under a 75. i would say even 90g
20lbs of live rock may not be enough biological filtration to keep up with a normally stocked 40g, much less one that is so extremely over stocked
you may need more live rock.
you tank looks amazingly algae free for being 2.5 onths old. it looks even newer. even in established aquarium adding one new fish per month is about the max
i would suggest finding out exactly what copper you put in your tank. all of your sand and live rock is now pretty much useless.
my opinion would be to try and retrun of find homes for you fish and other animals and start over. i am not sure if rock can be washed and left in the sun to be re used, but a general rule of thumb is that once something has been exposed to copper it is not usable ever again for inverts, coral or other critters beside fish.
i would have you LFS check your water parameters as well. with that fish load in new tank i cant imagine how your ammonia would be 0
good luck and ask as many questions as you need to get on the right path from here on out
steve r
where to begin, wow! well the damage is done. we have all made mistakes and i am sorry for loss. it is pretty common to get bad advice from the LFS.
first, a 40g is too small for any tang regardless of size.
mixing clowns is a bad idea in anything under a 75. i would say even 90g
20lbs of live rock may not be enough biological filtration to keep up with a normally stocked 40g, much less one that is so extremely over stocked
you may need more live rock.
you tank looks amazingly algae free for being 2.5 onths old. it looks even newer. even in established aquarium adding one new fish per month is about the max
i would suggest finding out exactly what copper you put in your tank. all of your sand and live rock is now pretty much useless.
my opinion would be to try and retrun of find homes for you fish and other animals and start over. i am not sure if rock can be washed and left in the sun to be re used, but a general rule of thumb is that once something has been exposed to copper it is not usable ever again for inverts, coral or other critters beside fish.
i would have you LFS check your water parameters as well. with that fish load in new tank i cant imagine how your ammonia would be 0
good luck and ask as many questions as you need to get on the right path from here on out
steve r
sdellin
Aquarium Advice Addict
Sorry to say, I think my lfs wants me to spend money and doesn't really want to make sure I'm doing the right things. I have gotten some really good advice from them, but also a lot of advice that's been disputed by this site as well as even Petco.
You may want to get a "start up" book like Salt Water Aquariums for Dummies, where they tell you from scratch how to select everything you need for the kind of tank you want and how to set it up step by step. I used it and it worked for me. But, I'm not an expert, just sharing my experience (the stuff that worked anyway).
You may want to get a "start up" book like Salt Water Aquariums for Dummies, where they tell you from scratch how to select everything you need for the kind of tank you want and how to set it up step by step. I used it and it worked for me. But, I'm not an expert, just sharing my experience (the stuff that worked anyway).
HoopsGuru
Aquarium Advice FINatic
In that picture, it appears to be two percula clowns....is this before the addition of your clarkii and maroon? Just trying to get a take one what is and has ever been in your tank.
You can't risk using the rock and substrate, and you can't test to see how much copper may be in it. In addition, the copper you added was likely absorbed and your fish are likely not being medicated at this point. Welcome to the dismal reality of some LFS. Many are undertrained or simply ignorant and pass on information and suggestions (most of heresay or rumor) that they heard...and so on. I would return to the store for at least a credit on the copper itself and to state your disappointment because this is a cut and dry case of poor advice.
Sorry, I have no guess on what the actual malady may be.
Get your bearings over the next few days and don't jump off the balcony yet! Try to find some "Polyfilters" and run them on the tank (they are a type of filter media, Google "aquarium polyfilter"). They remove many things including copper. Then wait to see how things balance out over the next few weeks.
You can't risk using the rock and substrate, and you can't test to see how much copper may be in it. In addition, the copper you added was likely absorbed and your fish are likely not being medicated at this point. Welcome to the dismal reality of some LFS. Many are undertrained or simply ignorant and pass on information and suggestions (most of heresay or rumor) that they heard...and so on. I would return to the store for at least a credit on the copper itself and to state your disappointment because this is a cut and dry case of poor advice.
Sorry, I have no guess on what the actual malady may be.
Get your bearings over the next few days and don't jump off the balcony yet! Try to find some "Polyfilters" and run them on the tank (they are a type of filter media, Google "aquarium polyfilter"). They remove many things including copper. Then wait to see how things balance out over the next few weeks.
no..the one in the corner is a maroon yellowstripe clown. i got the maroon first, then the blue tangs, and then the 2 other clowns about a month later.
i went to the LFS and was telling him about what you guys were saying - he basically denied it saying that the Copper Power medicine he gave me is very safe and all i need to do is change the filter padding in a month and everything should be ok. he also said that it will not kill my inverts, and although the warning label does say that it may be toxic to snails and inverts - none of them died so far. i put the medicine in a few days ago and my maroon has only came out of its corner when i throw food in once a day. my tangs occasionally come out to swim around, but usually hide with my maroon. has anyone ever experienced their fish acting like this?
not sure if this would be a good idea so i need everyone's advise - would it be smart to buy another small tank of maybe 12 gallons, and then cycle it for about a week with some sand and LR. then put the maroon clown and blue tangs with my inverts in the 12 gal tank. then change the filter, get rid of the rocks and sand, dump the water, and start all over on my 40 gallon tank?
once i have everything reset, slowly put everything back in my 40 gal. this is the only solution i can think of.
i went to the LFS and was telling him about what you guys were saying - he basically denied it saying that the Copper Power medicine he gave me is very safe and all i need to do is change the filter padding in a month and everything should be ok. he also said that it will not kill my inverts, and although the warning label does say that it may be toxic to snails and inverts - none of them died so far. i put the medicine in a few days ago and my maroon has only came out of its corner when i throw food in once a day. my tangs occasionally come out to swim around, but usually hide with my maroon. has anyone ever experienced their fish acting like this?
not sure if this would be a good idea so i need everyone's advise - would it be smart to buy another small tank of maybe 12 gallons, and then cycle it for about a week with some sand and LR. then put the maroon clown and blue tangs with my inverts in the 12 gal tank. then change the filter, get rid of the rocks and sand, dump the water, and start all over on my 40 gallon tank?
once i have everything reset, slowly put everything back in my 40 gal. this is the only solution i can think of.
sdellin
Aquarium Advice Addict
proverbs said:
If you're moving your fish to the quarantine tank, you need the sand and live rock to make the tank instant cycle. The bacteria should still be alive and that's what you need for the nitrificatoin process. But I would consider it contaminated and it shouldn't be returned to the main tank because you will want to add inverts to the main tank at some point and you don't want to take a chance of adding copper back to the main tank.
You don't really need to quarantine inverts, so assuming you're never going to put inverts in the QT, you can probably keep that sand in there.
i'm getting a little confused here.
so lets say i get a small 12 gal nano for a QT, but with future plans of getting some inverts, and maybe even a coral or two. would i still be able to use my old LR and sand?
i do want to make the 12 gal a QT, but i don't want it to sit there with nothing in it 90% of the time. i wanted to put a shrimp with some crabs and snails for it in the future. since the shrimps, crabs and snails are still alive in my 40 gal tank, i'm guessing they should be OK from the copper medicine.
so lets say i get a small 12 gal nano for a QT, but with future plans of getting some inverts, and maybe even a coral or two. would i still be able to use my old LR and sand?
i do want to make the 12 gal a QT, but i don't want it to sit there with nothing in it 90% of the time. i wanted to put a shrimp with some crabs and snails for it in the future. since the shrimps, crabs and snails are still alive in my 40 gal tank, i'm guessing they should be OK from the copper medicine.
HoopsGuru
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Copper doesn't always kill inverts instantly, it gets absorbed into their bodies (and the same for fish but their scales protect and reduce this quite a bit) and manifests at varying times.
To be 100% safe, your liverock and sand should not go back into your display as it may leech whatever copper it has absorbed back into the system. I would get a 20g minimum as your QT, only because you have 3 fish in a very small 12g otherwise. If the 12g is the best you can do, be prepared to test very frequently and do water changes as necessary to keep ammonia and nitrite at 0ppm.
To be 100% safe, your liverock and sand should not go back into your display as it may leech whatever copper it has absorbed back into the system. I would get a 20g minimum as your QT, only because you have 3 fish in a very small 12g otherwise. If the 12g is the best you can do, be prepared to test very frequently and do water changes as necessary to keep ammonia and nitrite at 0ppm.
sorry, but i have to make sure one more time before i dump antoher couple hundred dollars - i talked to a guy at my work who says he's been into SW fish for about 10 years. he told me that what he did to clean copper out was get a hose that sucked the water out and clean the tank like that. he would take about 25 - 30% of the water out like this while turning the sand over and replace it with some new saltwater. but before he put the new water in, he would change the filter pad and charcoal. does this seem like it would work? he told me thats what he did and had no troubles after.
sdellin
Aquarium Advice Addict
Proverbs, you understand that shrimps, crabs and snails are inverts, right? Just making sure because you mentioned making the 12 gallon tank a QT and putting shirmps, crabs and snails in it. If you keep shrimps, crabs and snails in your QT, then you wouldn't be able to put your sick fish in there to medicate, at least not with copper anyway, but that's the reason for having a QT.
If you don't want your QT sitting empty most of the time, you could put in a couple mollies. I've heard damsels suggested, which is what I now have in mine, but they can be a little aggressive, so mollies might be better. You don't want anything aggressive that will harass your sick fish.
Not sure about the advice from your friend at work, but it's well known in the fish-keeping hobby that copper kills inverts, so if it were me, I just wouldn't take the chance. If you decide to take your friends advice, make sure you get a good copper test kit. There is one for chelated and non-chelated copper, so make sure you get the one to test for the kind of copper you used, I couldn't find anything on "Copper Power" on the internet to check it out but it should be on the container somewhere. If you re-use the sandand/or live rock, you should test like crazy for copper over a good period of time before you ever put any inverts into the tank.
If you don't want your QT sitting empty most of the time, you could put in a couple mollies. I've heard damsels suggested, which is what I now have in mine, but they can be a little aggressive, so mollies might be better. You don't want anything aggressive that will harass your sick fish.
Not sure about the advice from your friend at work, but it's well known in the fish-keeping hobby that copper kills inverts, so if it were me, I just wouldn't take the chance. If you decide to take your friends advice, make sure you get a good copper test kit. There is one for chelated and non-chelated copper, so make sure you get the one to test for the kind of copper you used, I couldn't find anything on "Copper Power" on the internet to check it out but it should be on the container somewhere. If you re-use the sandand/or live rock, you should test like crazy for copper over a good period of time before you ever put any inverts into the tank.
i just want to say, thanks for all your advice everyone. i read all your posts and studied all your responses. i gathered all the information and researched everything so i could prepare myself to give a well deserved lecture to the owner of the store who sold me the copper medicine. suprisingly, i was shut down rather quickly.
when i began to give my lecture, he stopped me and said, "do you know how long i've been in this business?" i told him, no, i don't don't really care because he's wrong and gave me some bad advice. well, he then proceeded to tell me that he's been working with fish for a long time and he knows what he is doing. he told me that the copper medication that he gave me, "Copper Power" (i could not find anything on the internet for Copper Power so i couldn't argue with him, but it does say on the bottle that the medication does not percipitate), does not percipate, meaning that it does not cling on to the LR or LS. he told me to let the medication stay in there for another 2-3 weeks, and then change out the filter padding and charcoal and do frequent water changes for about another month until the copper gets back to a low level. i then asked him about my inverts, and he told me to calm down because if they were going to die of copper poisoning, they would die in less than 3 days. he urged me to just "trust him", and to stop bugging him.
so now i have two paths i can take - the safe way, and spend another couple hundred dollars on a qt, or i can just trust the LFS guy who seemed pretty angry that i didn't trust him in the first place. do you guys think his recommendation makes sense? and what makes me curious is that if "Copper Power" is so great, why doesn't anyone know about it or have information on it?
when i began to give my lecture, he stopped me and said, "do you know how long i've been in this business?" i told him, no, i don't don't really care because he's wrong and gave me some bad advice. well, he then proceeded to tell me that he's been working with fish for a long time and he knows what he is doing. he told me that the copper medication that he gave me, "Copper Power" (i could not find anything on the internet for Copper Power so i couldn't argue with him, but it does say on the bottle that the medication does not percipitate), does not percipate, meaning that it does not cling on to the LR or LS. he told me to let the medication stay in there for another 2-3 weeks, and then change out the filter padding and charcoal and do frequent water changes for about another month until the copper gets back to a low level. i then asked him about my inverts, and he told me to calm down because if they were going to die of copper poisoning, they would die in less than 3 days. he urged me to just "trust him", and to stop bugging him.
so now i have two paths i can take - the safe way, and spend another couple hundred dollars on a qt, or i can just trust the LFS guy who seemed pretty angry that i didn't trust him in the first place. do you guys think his recommendation makes sense? and what makes me curious is that if "Copper Power" is so great, why doesn't anyone know about it or have information on it?
sdellin
Aquarium Advice Addict
Whew! Nice guy, huh? You could follow his plan and see what happens. If you do that, you may want to find a temporary home for your inverts so they don't have further exposure to the copper. If you do enough water changes and run carbon in your filter, you will eventually get the copper level down, but you still need to get a test kit so that you can test the copper level over the next month.
Do you know what company makes the Copper Power? It might be on the label.
Do you know what company makes the Copper Power? It might be on the label.
