What the ich?

[pkremer]

OK, I am realizing something! You must be under the impression that my 46 gallon is infected with ich too!

I began set up my 46-gallon with what I thought was a healthy fish in QT. I cycled the 46 with live rock, and it just finished. Nothing alive (besides the rock and what lives in it) has ever been in the 46, so the 46 is not infected.

The fish was in my QT tank the whole time, and came down with visible ich at almost 8 weeks...I can only assume he was infected for several weeks and only became visible to me after that long...I still can't figure out what happened there. Nothing was introduced to the QT besides him from day 1.

In any case, I will not be able to put him in there then, as you are quite right. After 14 days, I should begin removing the copper, and watch him to see if it worked. If I get the main tank infected, life will not be fun for me, so you are right it is a good idea to make sure I get him healthy in there...like I said, showing off to company is not worth having to fallow my main tank for 6 weeks (not to mention catch that little bugger with all the caves I made)!!!

I am going to get a Seachem Copper test, Drs. Foster and Smith told me this tests for chelated copper.

Paul

EDIT: OK, I am literally beating my head against the wall...now the angel has a small white circular "something" on his right side. I cannot tell exactly what it is, as he will not stop moving...this was NOT there this morning. It is about half the size of a dime...it's not fuzzy, just kind of a whitish discoloration (it reflects light).

I've had freshwater ich one time, and treated it very easily with heat and salt...this infection is really driving me crazy. I've never had such an ill fish, and have no experience treating disease. I just tested ammonia and nitrite, both are 0 for now. I do have a bottle of Maroxy from a previous fungal infection in my freshwater aquarium, but I won't treat with it until I find out what this is.

Don't worry, I'm sure I'll get through this, but I'm hitting a wall of frustration now...I'm sure you can understand...I've spent $1000 in the last few months getting this tank set up, and I keep running into walls...my head hurts.

 

[steve-s]

Could be a reaction to the copper, pay close attention to the behavior of the angel for stress related actions. It could also be the start of a bacterial infection of Lymphocystis. Fungal infections are so rare in marine aquaria, there really not worth consideration at this point. Bacterial infections do however look just like fungal infections.

Have you used any dechlorination additives in the tank water at all?

What are the water parameters?

I hope you had a rush delivery on the copper kit!!

Cheers
Steve

 

[pkremer]

Well, it's not a rush delivery, but being I am in Fargo, ND, and Drs. Foster and Smith are in Wisconsin, I usually get next day service...it's amazing how fast they get stuff here, but we are only 2 states apart.

The problem is...even if I see "stress related actions" how could I pinpoint if it was the copper or the ich? The ich seems to like his head. He has no spots at all on his body, and about 6 or 7 on his head.

Back in January, I used 10 gallons of tap water with dechlorinator. I performed my first water change with dechlorinated tap water as well. However, starting in February, I began to see the benefits of RO water, and have done 2 or 3 water changes with it since then. Nothing but RO water has been used for water changes and evaporation topoffs since the beginning of February.

Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 20
Total Hardness = 300
Alkalinity = 180? Color is a little vague.
pH = 7.9 to 8.1 ?? Again, color is a little vague.

I am ordering some liquid test kits tonight, these results were from dip strips. They worked well for freshwater, but I am finding them frustrating for saltwater.

I am ordering liquid tests for pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate (API), phosphate, calcium, carbonate/total hardness (Hagen) and Copper (SeaChem). I know it's funny the mix and match, but some of the brands don't offer all the tests. Any last minute recommendations before I place my order? I should hopefully have all these tests by Thursday morning.

Paul

PS - Also, steve-s, thank you so much for your help. I have kept a freshwater aquarium for over 2 years and been very successful. I have helped several of my friends to succeed too, and now I am a newbie all over again, making newbie mistakes... Thank you for your patience. I feel so bad for my poor fish! I hope I can nurse him back to good health! You know I love the little guy when I have spent almost $40 on medication and testing equipment for a fish I purchased for $13! hehe!

 

[steve-s]

What time was the pH tested and does the tank have a solid lid?

I would do a good sized water change with well aged/aerated SW to get the nitrates down some and address the possibly low pH. Depends on the time of day you tested it. I would also test the new SW after mixing to see if it's all good there. Be sure the SW used for you water chnages are dosed with the Coppersafe in a seperate bucket labeled copper only. This will reduce the confusion of what to add after being diluted and labeling will ensure it is not used for anything else.

On your test kits, the only one I would suggest switching is the alkalinity. Hagen is not that accurate. Instead, go with the Seachem one. It will also test the pH so you won't need a seperate one.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=13513&N=2004+113074

Cheers
Steve

 

[pkremer]

The pH was tested minutes before I posted the results...9 or 10 o'clock at night? It has a hood, but of course there is open water where the HOB filter pours back in.

Unfortunately, I placed the order already. I wanted them to have it last night to make sure it shipped today, and I had it Thursday. I didn't want to risk missing the shipping window today. I succeeded too, because after I read this post, I called Drs. Foster and Smith to see if I could change it, and the order has already been processed and ready for shipment. Hopefully, the Hagen will be close enough where I can get a good idea of where I'm at for alkalinity? I will get a water change mixed today so it will be ready for me tomorrow. How much? 25%? 50%?

Paul

EDIT: I am pleased to report that all of ich has fallen off...there do not appear to be any white spots on him anymore. He DOES seem to have what I would call "pock marks" in his head where the spots were, but I suppose this is normal right after the ich falls out? After all, I assume it burrowed into his head. Anyway, the ich has all fallen away, and he is much calmer now. He has resumed his normal pattern of swimming, and is searching the tank for alage and nipping at everything again...this is the first good step in almost 2 weeks.

 

[steve-s]

No worries on the test kit, something to consider in future though. Salifert is also a good choice although pH and alk are seperate.

Good news on the angel, just watch the "pot holes" to ensure they do not become infected. If the water quality remains good you should have no worries. Also keep in mind it could just be simple depigmentation.

Cheers
Steve

 

[pkremer]

OK, I don't understand this copper test. The Mardel Coppersafe says to keep it within 1.5 to 2 ppm, however this SeaChem test only goes to 1.0! It also doesn't give me any ability to gauge how much water I need to test...it just says to fill the pipette "to the base" 2 times, and the instructions are unbelievably vague...what a waste!

Is there anyone out there who has used the SeaChem copper test to test for chelated copper? I tried to follow its instructions for chelated copper, but it barely turned a color at all, so I can't be sure if there's no copper left in the aquarium (unlikely) or if I used too much water in the test, and diluted it...

Paul

On a positive note, the angelfish still has no ich, is acting completely normal...even that spot on his side that we were concerned about being a bacterial infection is getting smaller...Please help with the copper test!

 

[steve-s]

What reading do you get with the test regent supplied (liquid vial)?
Have you diluted your tank sample with 1 part DI water?
Are you allowing the 1st regent added (powder) and the tank water sample/DI to sit 25 min before proceeding to step 3?

Chelates must be 1.5-2.0 ppm to be effective but the test kit does not read that high so you need to dilute the tested water by ½. Once you have a result matching the color chart, you simpley multiply by 2.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Tito2491]

I also have ich problems in my reef tank and I used Kick Ich which doesnt kill inverts,corals,lr,ls,etc and after 1treatment I see some improvements HTH

 

[pkremer]

OK!!! I am BEYOND frustrated!!!

I left the Coral Beauty in the copper treatment for 2 weeks. He looked much better after 1, all spots gone, but I left him in the copper treatment for 15 days. After that, I did a 33% water change, and then left him in the QT for another 14 days. The entire time, he was swimming normally and looked healthy.

So last night I figured, 2 weeks of copper and 2 weeks of being healthy afterwards, I have beaten this! I transferred him last night, 25 minutes of floating with regular squirts of main tank water. I put him in there last night, and turned the lights off. Today I wake up, the lights come on, and he is acting strangely...I figure don't panic, he's still new in there, and not used to the current of my powerheads...however, now, about 20 hours after I put him in there, he is doing regular "freak outs" and I saw him scraping himself against a rock!!! What is going on? The only thing that has been added to the main tank was my cleanup crew 2 weeks ago of hermit crabs, snails, and 2 peppermint shrimp!

It almost seems like I did kill the stupid ich in the QT tank, but in the main tank, he seems to be getting it again??? I am totally at a loss here to explain this, and my elation the last couple weeks has turned into utter frustration again!!! Why am I having so many problems? Who invented this "SUPERICH" that can withstand everything I've thrown at it? I don't know how on earth I am going to catch him now...I had enough trouble in the 10 with no decorations, and now he has 60 pounds of rock with all kinds of caves I purposely designed for him!!! I can't tear apart the rockwork now with the cleanup crew in there, I'd never get it back the way it was...

Sorry for the length, I am just at wits end here, and have no idea how to proceed now... He doesn't actually have any visible spots, but it sure seems like ich-related behavior.

Paul

 

[Brenden]

I am totally at a loss here to explain this

Your problem is that ich can live in a tank without a host/fish for up to 8 weeks. The only way to guarantee it is not in the main is to leave it fallow for 6-8weeks, preferably the later. It is very likely it has been infected again. In the future I would also acclimate it back to the tank slower. Add the tank water in intervals until it is doubled, then remove half the water and do it again. Should take about one hour.

 

[pkremer]

I'm not sure you understand...the main tank has NEVER had a fish in it. It is a brand new set up. Besides the live rock and the cleanup crew, there has never been anything added to this tank...where would the ich have come from in the main tank?

Paul

 

[steve-s]

where would the ich have come from in the main tank?

Unfortunately, you are the victim of what hobbyists rarely believe will ever happen and fail to plan for...

live rock and the cleanup crew

Anything wet, especially hard surface materials can/will transport parasites into the display tank just the same as an infected fish. I am by no means trying to make you feel bad, it's a hard one to grasp sometimes but it happens all too often.

Did you get the copper test kit figured out properly and what was the daily reading over the two week period of treatment?

Cheers
Steve