What the ich?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

pkremer

Aquarium Advice Freak
Joined
Apr 30, 2004
Messages
479
Location
Fargo, ND
OK, I noticed my fish has been acting a little strangely for the last week or so, but I could never pinpoint a problem. I checked all parameters, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate less than 20, pH 8.0, etc...

Today, I inspected him again, Coral Beauty Angelfish, and I saw ich spots!!! He has about 5 or 6 on his head, and about 4 or 5 more on his body and fins. Today, he was freaking out as fish do when they come down with ich...

Here's my question: How did this happen? He's been in that tank for over 2 months! Wouldn't this have shown up in the first few weeks? Here is a timeline:

Early January: Set up a 10 gallon aquarium, intended for quarantine...plotted the rise of my 46 gallon.

Jan 10, 2006 : Purchased a Coral Beauty Angelfish, appeared very healthy, acted normally.

Late January : Performed my first water change. Up until this point, I was using treated tap water. I found a horrendous algae problem, and realized after more research that RO water was the way to go. Began using RO water for evaporation topoffs.

Feb 23, 2006 : Set up my 46-gallon aquarium, very slowly and carefully moved the 10-gallon aquarium to the base. I went as slow and gently as I could with this, and my fish didn't seem extremely stressed by the move, although there was a 4 degree temp difference (why I used different thermometers I don't know :( ) in the replacement water in the water change I performed that day...I used RO for this water change.

March 11, 2006: Noted that my fish was beginning to act strangely, but nothing so terrible as to worry me.

March 15, 2006 : Noted my fish was continuing to act strangely (jerking movements, hanging out in the corners of the tank), began to become concerned, tested all water parameters, everything is fine.

March 18, 2006 : SPOTS! He definitely has ich.

Could that move on the 23rd of February have been the stressor? Would it have taken almost another month after the move for it to become visible? In any case, how did the ich survive in that water for 2 months without infecting him? And now what procedures should I take to cure him?

Also, how will this affect my 46-gallon? I am currently in full cycle swing in the 46-gallon, estimate 2 weeks before it is ready for fish...I can't put a fish with ich in there...how am I going to get a fish in there now at the end of the cycle? Putting a fish direct from the LFS seems just as dangerous to me. I thought I had this down, a very healthy fish in the 10-gallon ready to go, now shows up with ich! How frustrating! Help!
 
Yes, more likely the sudden temp cahnge although 4 degrees is not much it could have done it. Did anything else come from the LFS during that time? I would think that any ich would have just about been through the life cycle by early March, but it can hange on.

Is the CB still in the 10g? Have you started treatment?
 
No, the Coral Beauty is the only thing (besides a few pounds of live rock, RO water and salt) that have gone into the aquarium since the beginning. Yes, he is in the 10 gallon, and I just noticed it a couple of hours ago, so no, I have nothing to begin treatment with...I'm curious what the best method is?

That was my question, how did it hang on for 2 months? Usually I quarantine for 4 weeks...he comes down with ich after 2 months!!!
 
It has not been unheard of for Ich to have an extended life cycle up to 8 weeks. So it is possible the move and the temp difference stressed him and made him suseptable to Ich. A 4 degree difference in water temp is alot. Hyposalinity and heat is the favored method to get rid of Ich.

Read these:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm

Good Luck,
Brian
 
He looks better today, he's not freaking out. I tried a new food today, spirulina, and he loved it, he gobbled it all up.

For the ich, the LFS recommended a product called Marc Weiss Coral-Vital. It is designed to help Corals, but the LFS guy said it does not kill the ich, but disrupts the ich and causes the ich to "go dormant." The product won't harm live rock, corals, or invertebrates. He said that I can use this product in my quarantine tank, and it should halt the ich from any new infestations. Then I can remove the fish from QT into the main tank and then treat the QT tank (even with a complete dry out) to kill it without putting the fish through the stress of harsh medications or transfer treatments.

He said he treats all his saltwater tanks with this product the day before a shipment of new fish, and treats fish with ich with it, and has found it very effective. Their fish always look healthy, and stay that way when brought home. I figured I'd give it a try!

Paul
 
Sorry to hear about your problem Paul. Things were going so well for you too :(

I don't have any experience with using Coral Vital, but I have seen the labelling on it regarding it being useful with ich. I've always heard that hypo-salinity is the best treatment option. I have seen the product called Kick-Ich actually work on a couple of occasions, but have read here that most people consider it to be unreliable and it's expensive to boot. My buddy treated a tang that he got from Petco which had it pretty bad and it did clear it up. Might be worth a try if you're not equipped to do the hypo. A garlic supplement will probably help also. Good luck.
 
Does anyone have experience with RidIch? A friend of mine says he has successfully treated ich with on every occasion he has had to deal with it. The problem with it is that it is malachite green and formalin, and you cannot have any live rock in the aquarium. He said it will also color things blue you would rather not have blue, but that it works well.

Anyone else with experience with it? If the Coral Vital does not help, I may try it, but what can I do with my live rock in the meantime? I have 5 pounds in there...

Paul
 
Well, I'm happy to say that with improved feeding and daily treating with the Coral-Vital, my fish is 100% better! He is back to acting normally, and there are no more spots on him!

Paul
 
Well, I am frustrated. My 46-gallon is ready for a fish, and I don't have a healthy fish to put in there. And now I have wasted an entire week attempting this Coral-Vital treatment.

I treated for 6 days like the LFS said, and the Coral Beauty got better, but never really looked normal. I did not treat yesterday, and now today I see a few tiny spots on his head and see him scraping himself against my heater and my rocks. I know that the best treatment would be hyposalinity, but with that method, my 46-gallon will "uncycle." How can I keep the bacteria alive in the 46-gallon while I get this Coral Beauty healthy in QT? I don't want to put a fish with ich in my display tank, but purchasing a fish from my LFS and putting him directly in there seems just as dangerous?

Any advice?
 
Fish are not required to keep the bacteria up in the display. Any nutrient added will do exactly the same thing. While the angel is in the QT, just feed the 46 gal about 2x a week with a small amount of food. That will be plenty to maintain the bacteria.

You will need to leave the display tank fallow for about 6 weeks.

Cheers
Steve
 
pkremer said:
For the ich, the LFS recommended a product called Marc Weiss Coral-Vital. It is designed to help Corals, but the LFS guy said it does not kill the ich, but disrupts the ich and causes the ich to "go dormant."

I've never heard of this stuff but I don't know that I would believe him..
 
Yeah, it didn't work. I called him back and he told me not to worry about putting the fish in the display tank, because the Coral Vital would cause the ich to go dormant and then he would get healthy and be able "to fight it off." He said that all fish carry it on them, but don't get it until they get stressed!!! Argh! Is there no test you have pass to be a LFS employee?? Does nobody know what they are talking about?

Anyway, I removed the live rock from my QT (it will not be going back in, newbie mistake), placed the live rock in a separate tub where it will remain for 6 to 8 weeks to finish off any ich in the rocks...

I have now dosed the QT tank with Coppersafe by Mardel. I did this on Sunday. My Coral Beauty still has some spots on him, but there are less of them. It says on the bottle that 1 dose should be good for a whole month...am I involved in a waiting game then? Just allow him to be in there for a few more weeks and the ich should die? I chose copper because I don't intend to ever have live rock or invertebrates in the QT again, and I have read it is very effective...
 
pkremer said:
He said that all fish carry it on them, but don't get it until they get stressed!!! Argh! Is there no test you have pass to be a LFS employee?? Does nobody know what they are talking about?
I've heard much worse but gladly you know better. :wink:

Anyway, I removed the live rock from my QT (it will not be going back in, newbie mistake), placed the live rock in a separate tub where it will remain for 6 to 8 weeks to finish off any ich in the rocks...
(y) (y) (y)

It says on the bottle that 1 dose should be good for a whole month...am I involved in a waiting game then? Just allow him to be in there for a few more weeks and the ich should die? I chose copper because I don't intend to ever have live rock or invertebrates in the QT again, and I have read it is very effective...
Copper is very effective but not all are made equally. If you ever need it again, choose Cupramine by Seachem. Much less toxic/stressful on fish, especially angels which are nown to have adverse reactions. FWIW, hyposalinity would have been a much wiser option.

In any event, when using Coppersafe, the proper dosage is 1 teaspoon for every 4 gallons of water volume. Even though it says it will stay in solution it almost never does. You will need to test the level of copper 2x each day to be sure it stays there. It will also be necessary to do water changes as most copper remedies destroy the biofilter. You cannot use any carbon or similar products either. Be sure the kit you get is specifically manufactured for chelated forms of copper. Test to verify the level is 1.5-2.0 ppm at all times. You will need to leave the angel in the copper treatment for 2 weeks. Do not extend that time frame as it will begin to hamper the overall health of the fish.

Cheers
Steve
 
Thank you for your very knowledgeable and easy to understand response. I know hyposalinity would have been better, but that treatment takes 6 weeks, doesn't it? I was trying to find a safer way to treat in 2 weeks so as not to waste my cycle in my 46 gallon. It has been cycled for almost a week now, and although I am putting a little food in there every few days, I would like to get a fish in there...:)

Where would I find a copper test? I do not have one currently. I put in the dosage...2.5 teaspoons for my 10 gallon QT...I don't have any filtration other than the HOB filter pad, no carbon or anything...I treated the tank 48 hours ago. He still has some white spots on him, but most have fallen off, and he is not acting quite as "panicky" as he was the day I put the treatment in. I am assuming if he had a gill infestation, they are falling out now, and the copper should be killing anything new tomites that are being born.

I am curious if he looks healthy at 12 days, if it would be OK to take him out and put him in the 46? I am having company over that day, and will have my new lights (Orbit 192W), my cleanup crew, and it would be amazing to have the Angel in there too for my company...but don't worry, the health of my fish and not infecting my main tank is more important than showing off for company...I will do what it takes to get him healthy.

Paul
 
pkremer said:
I know hyposalinity would have been better, but that treatment takes 6 weeks, doesn't it?
You have to fallow the main tank for that long so it's really not an issue. Ideally, hypo should last 4 weeks past the time the last spot is observed on the fish. Typically 5-6 weeks though.

I was trying to find a safer way to treat in 2 weeks so as not to waste my cycle in my 46 gallon. It has been cycled for almost a week now, and although I am putting a little food in there every few days, I would like to get a fish in there...:)
It's all good to be eager but don't be in a hurry :wink:

As I said above, you have six weeks before the fish goes back in the main. As for the cycle, the bacteria does not care if the ammonia comes from the fish or the food, as long as it gets nutrient the tank will not need to recycle.

Where would I find a copper test?
Check you LFS or see if there are any local reefing communities/local reefers from this site that can help/lend you one.

I am assuming if he had a gill infestation, they are falling out now, and the copper should be killing anything new tomites that are being born.
Copper will kill all free swimming stages of the parasite so once they fall away, you should not notice any new trophonts.

I am curious if he looks healthy at 12 days, if it would be OK to take him out and put him in the 46?
Nope, the main will still be infectious at 12 days. Once the treatment in the QT is done, the fish should remain in the QT for an additional 2 weeks. After the initial treatment is done, remove the copper (water changes & carbon) and then watch the fish to be sure the treament was 100% successful and there are no signs of secondary infection. More commonly if the copper was maintained correctly, the parasite will not be an issue but bacterial infections may take several days or longer to manifest water quality depending. If that does happen, the fish is exactly where it needs to be and can be treated quickly and easily.

Cheers
Steve
 
Back
Top Bottom