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Old 11-06-2003, 01:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve-s
[ C. irritans is a parasite and as such the fish does not have an immunity to it.
There is empirical evidence that suggests otherwise as well, I offer this kindly.

Innate Immunity

Innate immunity refers to the general response to an invading pathogen or parasite regardless of that pathogen or parasite encountered (Dickerson and Clark, 1996). This form of immunity does not rely on previous encounters and includes generalised reactions such as secretion of mucus, but may include specific host cell responses (acquired genetically).

While little formal study has been performed on innate immunity of marine fish to C. irritans, innate immunity of freshwater fish to I. multifiliis, both between and within host species suggests that the former may be possible. Collective anecdotal evidence from marine aquarists lends weight to the idea that some species, such as chaetodontids (butterflyfish) and acanthurids (surgeonfish and tangs) may be more prone to Marine "Ich" infections, whereas other species such as callionymids (dragonets) are not at all. Intraspecific differences in innate immunity would be much harder to detect through random observation.

Acquired Immunity

Acquired immunity occurs when the response is specific to the invading organism, which is recognised directly or through antigens (Dickerson and Clarke, 1996). Colorni (1987) first suggested that marine fish could acquire some immunity to C. irritans by surviving several infections. Burgess and Matthews (1995) demonstrated acquired immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. They found that 82% of fish that had been previously exposed to high levels of theronts were immune to a secondary exposure.

Treatment

There are only two proven methods for the treatment of Marine "Ich", copper and hyposalinity. Neither method can be used in the presence of elasmobranchs (sharks and rays) or invertebrates and so treatment must be performed in a quarantine or hospital tank. Hyposalinity is the preferred treatment as it is not dangerous to the fish and actually eases osmotic stress on the fish. Hyposalinity can also be performed in the presence of calcareous substrates.

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Old 11-06-2003, 02:42 AM   #12
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In future if you are going to cite abstracts, I would appreciate a link to the page..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site
Innate Immunity

Innate immunity refers to the general response to an invading pathogen or parasite regardless of that pathogen or parasite encountered (Dickerson and Clark, 1996). This form of immunity does not rely on previous encounters and includes generalised reactions such as secretion of mucus, but may include specific host cell responses (acquired genetically).

While little formal study has been performed on innate immunity of marine fish to C. irritans, innate immunity of freshwater fish to I. multifiliis, both between and within host species suggests that the former may be possible. Collective anecdotal evidence from marine aquarists lends weight to the idea that some species, such as chaetodontids (butterflyfish) and acanthurids (surgeonfish and tangs) may be more prone to Marine "Ich" infections, whereas other species such as callionymids (dragonets) are not at all. Intraspecific differences in innate immunity would be much harder to detect through random observation.
The above refers to an improved immune response, not an aquired immunity. Basically a stronger faster resistance but still not an immunity. It also cites that only a few fish species have shown a possitive reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site
Acquired Immunity

Acquired immunity occurs when the response is specific to the invading organism, which is recognised directly or through antigens (Dickerson and Clarke, 1996). Colorni (1987) first suggested that marine fish could acquire some immunity to C. irritans by surviving several infections. Burgess and Matthews (1995) demonstrated acquired immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. They found that 82% of fish that had been previously exposed to high levels of theronts were immune to a secondary exposure.
Humans have an immune response to many viruses, parasites and such in which the body tries to heal itself. Are we to allow people to suffer in hopes they get better or do we take steps to help the body heal through intervention? I realise it may sound condesending but it is not meant to. What you/they are suggesting with the above is that the fish if left to fend for itself will eventually develope a stronger resistance. What if the fish does not survive? Do not forget, we are dealing with a closed system where the fish cannot escape the infestation. In the wild, once the parasite leaves the fish it is not going to be there once the reproductive cyst breaks to re-infect the fish anew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site
Treatment

There are only two proven methods for the treatment of Marine "Ich", copper and hyposalinity. Neither method can be used in the presence of elasmobranchs (sharks and rays) or invertebrates and so treatment must be performed in a quarantine or hospital tank. Hyposalinity is the preferred treatment as it is not dangerous to the fish and actually eases osmotic stress on the fish. Hyposalinity can also be performed in the presence of calcareous substrates.
I do not think you find a single response from me where I did not urge someone to use hyposalinity which is not a chemical means to cure the animal but rather the least stressful and most successful treatment available. If the person is unwilling, then copper is really the only other resort.

If you wish to adhere to the above anecdotal evidence, that is your choice but it is just that, a theory through casual observation and not proven fact. The only way to prove a theory is through documented research and possible sacrifices of fish life. Personally, if there is a proven cure I will choose that over a theory any day.

When posting a response to others in hopes of helping them save their animals I put myself in their shoes. I am not willing to take risks on theories with my own animals and would not ask others to do the same. If truely a fact it can stand up to any scrutiny but in questioning these facts please consider your words to others when suggesting unproven theories.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 11-06-2003, 10:50 AM   #13
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Sorry about the link, I'll do that in the future.

And please note that I'm not claiming to adhere to any particular set of discoveries. If you can find where I claim that, please let me know.

You make it sound as though I'm trying to experiment on other people's fish without putting myself in their shoes. I'm merely trying to figure this issue out.

If you can show me a study that shows the survival rate of fish that have been adjusted to a proper environment prior to medication VS the survival rate of fish that are left in an unsatisfactory environment, treated, then the environment changed, then that's fine.

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The following text from this link:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
Temperature effects. As with freshwater ich, it's advised to raise your systems temperature to speed up the life cycle of Crypt while you're treating for it. If your livestock can handle it, increase your heating to the mid 80's F along with whatever other treatment regimen you employ.

Also from the above link:

About "Crypt Free" Systems:

There are such things, but unless the aquarist is diligent in altogether excluding these parasites through quarantine, treatment outside their main displays, most aquariums will instead host latent infestations... with discernible populations of Cryptocaryon coming to be through environmental challenge/s to their fishes.




That's all I'm trying to say. That is the entire basis of my issue.

I'll back off because you're an advisor and I'll leave with my apologies.

But please don't accuse me of endangering other people's pets, or making someone do something, because that person is I am sure intelligent enough to figure it out. I'm not an authority figure here, I am merely exploring all of the options that I see.
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Old 11-06-2003, 12:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snapcrackler
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The following text from this link:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
Temperature effects. As with freshwater ich, it's advised to raise your systems temperature to speed up the life cycle of Crypt while you're treating for it. If your livestock can handle it, increase your heating to the mid 80's F along with whatever other treatment regimen you employ.

Also from the above link:

About "Crypt Free" Systems:

There are such things, but unless the aquarist is diligent in altogether excluding these parasites through quarantine, treatment outside their main displays, most aquariums will instead host latent infestations... with discernible populations of Cryptocaryon coming to be through environmental challenge/s to their fishes.
Please note the areas that I have underlined. Both are what I have said from day one. Increasing the temp without a proper treatment inplace will do nothing except speed up the reproductive cycle of the parasite. If you increase the temp you still run the risk of further stressing the animal though with or without a treatment. With a treatment in place and raising the temp, you may erradicate the parasite a bit faster but it may be at the cost of the fish.
Through proper quarantine procedures, observation and possibley treatment; a fish can be introduced to the main display tank parasite free.

Quote:
I'll back off because you're an advisor and I'll leave with my apologies.
You have absolutely no reason to appologize nor would I ask you to stop helping others. What I was infering to you (although poorly) was to consider your words to others and how they may impact their results. A discussion thread is far different than advising someone of a course of action.

Quote:
But please don't accuse me of endangering other people's pets, or making someone do something, because that person is I am sure intelligent enough to figure it out. I'm not an authority figure here, I am merely exploring all of the options that I see.
It was not my intension for you to feel put upon with an accusation from me. Merley for you to realize that what you type can often be taken as truth and those that are not familiar with the subject will indeed not know well enough to figure it out themselves you must try to put everything in context as much as possible. So far, the only thing we have dissagreed upon is the use of treatment as apposed to allowing the fish to "heal" itself. So far, the abstracts you have brought to the discussion only support my reasoning that the fish is better treated. I also have not dissagreed with you concerning meds in the reagrd of C. irritns. I have always advocated for the use of hyposalinity which is a non-medicated treatment.

If I am wrong, please point out where...

Cheers
Steve
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Old 11-06-2003, 01:05 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by steve-s
So far, the only thing we have dissagreed upon is the use of treatment as apposed to allowing the fish to "heal" itself. So far, the abstracts you have brought to the discussion only support my reasoning that the fish is better treated. I also have not dissagreed with you concerning meds in the reagrd of C. irritns. I have always advocated for the use of hyposalinity which is a non-medicated treatment.

If I am wrong, please point out where...

Cheers
Steve
Steve, I respect your posts and opinions and I also do not wish to argue.

But I think we are miscommunicating here:

I never suggested that the fish not be medicated. I do not believe that this marine fish can just heal itself just by being in warmer water with more salt.

Here is what I meant in my initial post sir (my post quotes are in bold):
__________________________________________________ ______

Raising temps and salinity first would be very good IMO.

Please note that I said "first".

QT ing the fish immediately and adding meds would be, if I were the fish, harsh.

what I meant by this was, that I thought the fish might have a better chance of surviving meds with other factors adjusted to it's favor first.

I suggest raising temps to 80-82 F and salinity to 1.024-025 within a 48 hour period.

Please note that I said suggest.

Then go from there, very slowly (if you decide to use meds etc)

Meaning if you decide to use meds, or hypo or FW dip or whatever afterwards.

just my 2 cents worth.

Please also note that I said 2 cents worth, I am not trying to state as fact.

I am not some naturopathic extremist that thinks that everything will just heal itself. I understand the life cycle of the parasite. My suggestion would apply to either QT or in the main tank.

Because you always have your QT tank's salinity and temp matched to your main tank while standing by, right?

So the ENTIRE basis of what we are discussing is as follows:

I was trying to suggest simply this:

"Before you medicate or treat the animal, correct it's environment to proper parameters"

You stated this:

"It will stress the animal more, to alter the temp or salinity BEFORE you treat it for the parasite"

I think that's a pretty simple debate.

Now all I would like to see is a study showing WHICH method is less stressful to the animal.

Thanks for your patience and understanding, Steve.
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Old 11-06-2003, 03:08 PM   #16
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This thread is basically going nowhere fast. I have in fact already disputed your findings and answered all of your questionsabove except this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapcrackler
Now all I would like to see is a study showing WHICH method is less stressful to the animal.
I am not currently aware of a study in this regard. That does not mean it does not exist, it just means I have never looked for one. If you find one please let me know.

If you come up with any hard evidence that effectively disproves anything I have said concerning C. irritans, please feel free to bring it to my attention. I have already shown you through your own abstracts that what you are suggesting is incorrect or not neccessary and have no wish to keep chasing this in circles. I feel you are getting frustrated and possibley angered by this discussion which will do neither of us or the other members any good. If you feel there is more to add, please be specific and factual.

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Old 11-06-2003, 04:26 PM   #17
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I am truly a barnacle head

I reread your posts very very carefully and discovered that I was totally, completely barking up the wrong tree.

Sorry to blow that out of proportion. I just misread your initial post.

If I would have read it more carefully, I would have totally understood, and thus, not kept howling about the issue.

I hope I can serve as an example to others of how you should read everything twice before posting a reply.

I'm going to go now, and soak my head in some cold water. And I promise not to post on this thread again
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Old 11-06-2003, 07:29 PM   #18
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Hey, you/me/we all slip up from time to time... No worries. :P

One thing I can always repect though was that you stated your case coherently and stood your ground...

kudo's...

Cheers
Steve
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Old 11-06-2003, 10:31 PM   #19
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So.....

Nanson56, how are those fish doing??

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Old 11-06-2003, 10:47 PM   #20
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So.....

Nanson56, how are those fish doing??

DOH!!

Sorry Nanson56

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