A few fish deaths + a sick rummynose - read for more details

[mitko1994]

1~What type of fish is afflicted? In addition, please describe what is wrong with the fish to the best of your ability (i.e. cotton like growth, bloated, etc.).
A:
- A Red Irian rainbow (dead) - had something white sticking out of the anus for a few days and refused to eat. 1-2 days before it died it belly seemed to cramp into a ball(not bloated) and then it died. When I took it out of the tank it had something like a wound on the side but it might've been due to other fish picking on it when it was weak.

- A rummynose tetra(dead) - came very skinny right from the store. I thought it was underfed but it was likely sunken belly or something. It died 2 days ago.

- A rummynose (white mouth) - can't tell if it's discoloration or growth(check the video below). It looks a lot like how rainbowfish's mouth looks like when it gets damaged by a fish net.

- Turqouise rainbow (not eating) - I noticed this one a few hrs ago(it's the rainbow I zoom in on in the video). Visually there are no symptoms but it doesn't really swim around - it stay in one spot and doesn't show interest in food .

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Please give exact values.

A: Haven't measured those today. Usually nitrates tend to be higher than preferred but all has been fine until I bought the new fish.

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?

A: 90G tank. I've had it for 5-6 years( bought it 2nd hand - cycled).

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known.

A: 2 filters - Eheim Pro 2 and Eheim Classic 2217(if I remember correctly)

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes?

A: 20+ fish. Mostly tetras and some rainbows - most of them fully grown - except for the new ones. I also have 3 clown loaches (2-3" in length) and recently picked up some kribs.

6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel? How often do you do this? How much water do you remove at a time?

A: I did a water change today. I usually do 50% water changes/2 weeks Rarely vac the gravel as I have plants on the bottom.

7~How long have you had the fish? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them?
A: All the fish that have died, are acting weird, or show symptoms of disease were bought on December 26, 2016. To acclimate them, I just let them float in their bags in the tank for about 20 mins as I do with all new fish I buy.

8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.?

Added a bit of new substrate in November 2016 on the surface to make up for the substrate that had turned to sand over time. I add Seachem Prime every time I do a water change. I've had no problems with my fish before I bought the ones on December 26th.

9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently?
Flakes and very rarely dried tubifex (roughly 1/2 weeks, 1/week over the festive period)

Let me add some more detail. I've currently lowered the temperature to 23-24C as I read that Columnaris doesn't do well in temps <25C. This was done to stop a potential outbreak, if the white mouth on the rummynose is indeed that. I also read a lot of posts on people suggesting salt and others saying it's no good but I haven't tried it because I don't want to stress them out unnecessarily and potentially harm my scaleless fish. Also notice the bloated small bosemani at the beginning of the video - do you think it might be dropsy(there are no raised scales) ? Would you suggest epsom salt for that?

Here's the video I made.

Thanks
Mitko

 

[Delapool]

Hi, grim news on the tank.

The white mouth does sound like columnaris (cotton mouth). It was a bit hard for me to see in the video. My experience is that temperature increases or spikes make it worse so same temperature or slightly lower sounds good.

Do you have a QT? I'd start shifting sick fish to a spare tank or bucket.

For the rest I'm going to assume a bacterial infection as well. Parasites are also possible. Bacterial infections can spread faster and kill quicker so I'd do a treatment on that first.

Salt can possibly work or help but in bad cases you are into antibiotics. And your plants won't appreciate the salt anyways.

I would pick up furan 2 for the cotton mouth. And also get metronidazole to treat for internal bacterial infection / some parasites. This may solve the bloating, etc. If you are far away from the store, you could try normal salt or epsom salt in a QT to see if that helps.

Mainly for columaris it is getting infected fish out of the tank as soon as you see them. Small fish I've found are difficult to treat as by the time you can see it, the infection is pretty bad. Hope this helps.

 

[jim j]

My fish is trying to swim up right

 

[mitko1994]

Hi, grim news on the tank.

The white mouth does sound like columnaris (cotton mouth). It was a bit hard for me to see in the video. My experience is that temperature increases or spikes make it worse so same temperature or slightly lower sounds good.

Do you have a QT? I'd start shifting sick fish to a spare tank or bucket.

For the rest I'm going to assume a bacterial infection as well. Parasites are also possible. Bacterial infections can spread faster and kill quicker so I'd do a treatment on that first.

Salt can possibly work or help but in bad cases you are into antibiotics. And your plants won't appreciate the salt anyways.

I would pick up furan 2 for the cotton mouth. And also get metronidazole to treat for internal bacterial infection / some parasites. This may solve the bloating, etc. If you are far away from the store, you could try normal salt or epsom salt in a QT to see if that helps.

Mainly for columaris it is getting infected fish out of the tank as soon as you see them. Small fish I've found are difficult to treat as by the time you can see it, the infection is pretty bad. Hope this helps.

Thanks for your reply. I don't have a QT, the best thing I can do is move it to a bucket or a cooking pot. The rummynose still has the white mouth but it hasn't spread on it nor has it made it less active. As for the turquoise rainbow, it looks like it's a bit more active but I don't know if it eats or not (missed the morning feeding, will wait for the evening one). I think the bloating is less maybe they just ate too much. I don't have any epsom salt but perhaps I wont need it since the bloating will likely not be a problem. I do however have regular iodized salt. I read a lot of different opinions on iodized salt in the tank so I'm hesitant to try it. I don't mind giving individual fish salt baths in a separate container. It looks like salt might be helpful after all since it's also part of furan 2. If I do salt baths what's the suggested ratio of salt to water? I likely wont get the chance to go to a pet store anytime soon so I will just order them online. I hope the 5g metronidazole will be enough - it treat my tank 4 times or so.
Thanks

 

[mitko1994]

I forgot to mention that I have a bit of KanaPlex sitting around perhaps that could be of some help?

 

[Delapool]

Kana could be ok as long as no bloating. Admittedly on the fish I've tried it on they have been pretty bad but I find any fish with bloating or dropsy signs doesn't do well in treatment. But they have been ongoing infections that took a fair bit to catch fish (ie fish was in a bad way when finally caught them).

Metro if it makes a difference you may need a second course. I find it pretty safe. Furan also no issues. Another option is medicated feed.

Salt (nacl) is not normally part of furan 2. Does it say in ingredients? I've seen people report cures with just daily water changes (think they were very lucky), it all depends on what sort of bacteria and how far it has progressed.

Salt, acriflavin, etc are all trying to kill the infection without killing your fish and it's a fine line sometimes. Antibiotics are in many cases better as they target the bacteria (but of course we don't want to abuse use).

I'll have to look up notes on salt. I've used salt at 3 tablespoons per 5 gallons (added a tablespoon every say 12 hours) and that seem to help but not cure by itself for me. This was for neons and bn catfish.

I've heard of salt water dips at sea water strength being used but think that's pretty high for small fish.

 

[Delapool]

Salt I've generally done at week long treatments. Mainly at say 1 to 2 US tablespoons per US gallon. Start low and increase / watch fish.

Link below for dips. I lost some notes, my memory I had half dose salt for sensitive fish, for cories not above 0.5% but I need to check that.

https://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Salt

However for bacterial infections I've never cured a fish with salt so although I think salt is useful I have back up meds.

 

[mitko1994]

Hmmm... yea I guess I got confused about the ingredients of Furan 2. I was reading the ingredients on something and it said NaCl but I guess it wasn't that. I added the little Kanplex I had. The rainbow still has no apetite. It just sits around and strays away from other fish. Still no visible signs of a problem except the lack of appetite and inactivity. What's also interesting is that other fish don't pick on it ( I've noticed that fish sense when other fish are weak and dying and try to finish them off as quickly as possible. I wonder if they sense that the ill fish is a weakness to the community and try to get rid of it.) which might be a sign that it may not be sick but stressed. I guess the salt is not worth it. I'm thinking of doing a combined treatment of kanaplex and metroplex because these are very strong and cover all possibilities. They are also an affordable solution as they are about ~$10 ea/ round of treatment. By what I read, if the disease is curable, one treatment is usually enough. I also have a bottle of Mardel quick cure that I use whenever I get an ick outbreak - it's very effective usually after 2 doses it's gone. It dyes the tank blue but it works. It also says that it treats parasite but I'm not sure if I should try it or not.

 

[Delapool]

The kanaplax / metro are worth a try.

For bacterial infections I've tried products like mardel - just depends on the bacteria. Can be useful to dose that (or products like salt) to try and clean up infection - then follow up with antibiotics.

I'd pick now whatever you are comfortable dosing and try that. But I'd shift all sick or off fish to a bucket or something.

It's up to you however if you treat in tank or not. The bacterial infections I had culled schools of fish so now I pull any off fish out plus it's expensive for me to treat in a large tank.

Another option if you think the rainbow is maybe just off, is put inside a breeder net. Make it two nets so he can't get pecked at through net. That way he gets some quiet but you can check on him easily. (And if he dies, fish aren't picking at him and catching whatever he had).