Ammonia, Bald Spots, and Unidentifiable White Stuff! D:

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Defilerwyrm

Aquarium Advice Newbie
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
7
Location
Texas
There are three problems plaguing my 23-gallon tank. The first is that ever since I first started cycling this tank, I've been fighting an uphill battle with ammonia. At first we were using conditioned tap water, but as it turns out our municipal water has a pH nearing 8 to 9 so we switched to buying gallons of distilled [conditioned before pouring in, of course], and for a while that solved the problem. The gravel gets a very thorough vacuuming every time, and there hasn't been a notable difference in the ammonia levels with a varying population so I don't think it's overcrowding; I'm beginning to wonder if I don't need to do biweekly partial changes instead of weekly. x_x The nitrite and nitrate levels have only spiked once since the initial cycling; typically they're at zero or close enough to zero that the testwater barely registers. Ammonia, though, ffffff. Keeps spiking.

The second is that Nibbler, a male fire red dwarf gourami, has what appear to be bald spots on his sides. He's about a year old, named for the fact that when we first got him he went around nibbling at everything in the tank, including the other fish! At first I panicked and thought it might be fungus but it's not fuzzy in the slightest, nor are there any protrusions; it just looks like he's literally missing scales. Prime suspect is Adonis, our monstrous and territorial blue gourami; I suspect that he's simply beating the snot out of Nibbler because they've been the only two gouramis in the tank for about two weeks [we've had trouble finding healthy gouramis at local pet shops :| ] and they're both stressed out because of it, but if there are other possibilities I am all ears.

The third is an unidentiable white substance on the lower lip of Goldshire, a female long-finned zebra danio with partial albinism [she's a magnificent pale orange, like a marmalade cat]. It isn't fuzzy like fungus, and neither shaped nor coloured like an anchor worm now does it have any redness at the base. It's small, perfectly-white, and looks like a short bit of thread stuck to her mouth. Naturally she won't slow down, much less stay still, long enough for me to get a really good look at it. None of the other fish have ever presented anything like it. Antifungal medication has had no effect. Should I bust out the metronidazole just to be on the safe side? :S

Many thanks in advance for any and all help/suggestions y'all might have.

[edit to add] I have water tests running in some vials; as soon as those results are in I'll post them.

[second edit] As of 8:20pm tonight, Goldshire has died. Her spine was bowed up pretty badly and her mouth was stuck gaping open. >.< Little disturbing. Never seen a fish go that way.
 
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Water results are in.

Ammonia 0 ppm; nitrites <25 ppm; nitrates 5 ppm; pH 6.8. The water was changed yesterday. That pH is a bit surprising considering I use distilled water for changes and salt it as well. :confused:
 
I had the same problem. Don't know if you've checked your water source yet, but I had ammonia in my tap water. My solution was filtering my water. My suggestion for the time being would be to do 10-20% daily water changes until your ammonia and nitrItes are both 0.
 
Water results are in.

Ammonia 0 ppm; nitrites <25 ppm; nitrates 5 ppm; pH 6.8. The water was changed yesterday. That pH is a bit surprising considering I use distilled water for changes and salt it as well. :confused:

That is not surprising at all. Distilled water has a pH of 7.0, but it drops to mid 6's when CO2 from the atmosphere gets into it. Also, salt in pure water is acidic. (0.9% NaCl has a pH of 5.5).

If you are using pure water for the tank, there will be little or no buffering capacity. Any little thing (like CO2 from air) will drop the pH. The pH change is not good for fish. It is far better to have stable pH that is out of the "ideal" range of a fish than to have changing pH.

You can either mix in some of your tap water (say 50:50 with distilled) to get at a mid 7 pH, or get buffering salts to add to your distilled water. <They make salts to buffer pH to different values, from 6's for Discus to 8's for Rift lake cichlids.> Bottled spring water is a possibility, providing that the water has adequate KH .... You will need to measure your sample, as different source water is different.

As for the "bald spot", is it an area that is missing scales (or skin)? If so, it is an ulcer, usually brought on by a bacteria infection secondary to poor water. In addition to fixing the water, adding antibiotics is a good idea. <Note that antibiotics may kill your biofilter ... setting you back to square one in the cycle. You might want to treat in a hospital setup. Or since it is the only fish left, treat in tank but save some of your biofilter in a clean bucket & feed it a bit of ammonia or fish food ... just like fishless cycling.>
 
I don't believe table salt (NaCl) has any effect whatever on pH, as it is a salt of a strong acid and strong base, ie NaOH and HCl both dissociate 100% in water, and Na+ and Cl- ions have no tendency to ionize water molecules. The pH of a solution of distilled water and NaCl is therefore 7.0.

The pH of distilled water in equilibrium with atmospheric CO2, however, is only slightly above 5.5, and if you arrived at that number by experiment that is likely what happened.

PS you don't need to condition distilled water.
 
You can either mix in some of your tap water (say 50:50 with distilled) to get at a mid 7 pH, or get buffering salts to add to your distilled water. <They make salts to buffer pH to different values, from 6's for Discus to 8's for Rift lake cichlids.> Bottled spring water is a possibility, providing that the water has adequate KH .... You will need to measure your sample, as different source water is different.
Interesting points. I'll have to run some pH tests on the salted, distilled water, our tap water, and a 1:1 mixture of the two. Of course I'll have to test the tap for other things too; I know off the bat that it's incredibly alkaline [yay limestone aquifer system!].

As for the "bald spot", is it an area that is missing scales (or skin)? If so, it is an ulcer, usually brought on by a bacteria infection secondary to poor water. In addition to fixing the water, adding antibiotics is a good idea.
There's no full holes, just grey skin where there ought to be red scales. I've witnessed Adonis, the blue, chasing Nibbler around but I'm not sure if the former's beating up on the latter hard enough to do that kind of damage. I'll go for the antibiotics, thankya. *nods*

PS you don't need to condition distilled water.
Ah, thanks! Wasn't sure about that, better safe than sorry. ^^;
 
With nitrite levels like those i'm amazed any of the fish are alive at all. I would recommend using a 5 times dose of seachem prime and doing treatments of pimafix and melafix. The fish are obviously suffering from high nitrites and are being overwelmed to bacterical or fungal infections.
 
Haha, I just noticed that. It isn't really possible to have fish surviving at 25 ppm nitrite. I think we all read over that and assumed it was a typo. < .25 ppm should be just fine.
 
With nitrite levels like those i'm amazed any of the fish are alive at all. I would recommend using a 5 times dose of seachem prime and doing treatments of pimafix and melafix. The fish are obviously suffering from high nitrites and are being overwelmed to bacterical or fungal infections.
Oh, derp, that was indeed a typo on my part. Under 0.25ppm, not 25ppm. 8B
 
I don't believe table salt (NaCl) has any effect whatever on pH, as it is a salt of a strong acid and strong base, ie NaOH and HCl both dissociate 100% in water, and Na+ and Cl- ions have no tendency to ionize water molecules. The pH of a solution of distilled water and NaCl is therefore 7.0.

Although NaOH & HCl are 100% dissociated, they have different Ka's. That accounts for the drop in pH in saline solutions.

This:
Stability of norepinephrine infusions prepared in dextrose and normal saline solutions: [La stabilite des perfusions de norepinephrine preparees dans des solutions dextrosees ou salees] -- Tremblay et al. 55 (3): 163 -- Canadian Journal of Anesthesia
is a scientific article on Norepinepherine in saline. I would like to draws your attention to the 3rd figure: Before the addition of any drug, the pH of saline was measured at 6.0. <The nominal pH of NaCl is 5.5 on all the iv bags.>
 
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