Black Moor ill? White mouth and sitting on bottom of tank

[DebbieMum]

Above is the picture of "Rocky" our Black Moor that we've had for about 3 weeks.

Tank: Classica Cold Water 30L - ran with good bacteria and plants for 8 days before adding fish

Filter: Classica CPF200

Just taken test readings which are:

PH = 9 (which seems too high?)
Ammonia = 0.1mg/l
NitrIte = 0.1mg/l
NitrAte = 50mg/l (again this seems too high)

Temp: Unknown as we don't have a thermometer

Food: JBL Goldpearls (sinking food for Fantails), only giving a max of 3 pearls each a day, last two days have given them a chopped up pea.

Purchased a new 30 litre tank, set it all running, put the good bacteria stuff into the filter. After 8 days we added "Rocky" the first fish. We originally had the tank upstairs but moved it about 3 days ago so we could see more of the fish. It's cooler down here.

Before adding a second fish we took the water to the fish shop and they tested the water, the nitrite (I'm sure it was nitrite and not nitrate) was high. We did 50% water change, cleaned filter in removed fish water and have been doing 5% water changes for about 4 days and only fed Rocky on day 3 after high sample reading. Rocky's gills looked red which alerted me to a problem. Gills cleared up.

Just over a week later took more water back to the shop, it was tested and found to be fine. So we got a second fish (a Lionhead - my sons choice, odd looking fish!). However on the very same day we introduced him into the tank he seems to have swim bladder, he has to wedge himself under the leaves to stop floating to the top of the tank and when he does feed he's almost on his nose (doing a headstand is the best way I can describe it). The Lionhead has been with us for 4 days now, he seems happy enough, apart from the swim bladder symptoms.

My concern is Rocky - his symptoms are:

• Lying on the bottom of the tank most of the day (he will swim for food)
• Generally looking unhappy
• White stuff on his mouth and when I looked about 20 mins ago there seems to be some white stuff on his eyes too - please see picture above.

Before posting I've tried to work out what he could have, but I'm not sure hence posting the picture. Also very concerned about the Ph Levels and Nitrate.

Whilst researching there are a lot of posts saying that fancy goldfish prefer warmer water and I was all set to buy a heater but the chap at the fish shop said they are fine in cold water - so advice would be appreciated there too.

I'm sure there are many posts from new tank owners, so apologies, I thought we'd got the water quality right before adding fish. Now I feel awful that Rocky isn't well.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Debbie

 

[jsoong]

Welcome to AA!!

1. fancies like to be in the mid 70's. "Cold water" means different things to different people. It all depends on where you live & what the ambient temp is .... I would take the tank temp for starts. <any thermometer, even a (clean) kitchen thermometer will work.>

2. pH of 9 is not too high, as long as it is stable. Gold fish can adapt to quite a wide range of pH's. I would not blame the symptoms on the pH, unless it is fluctuating.

3. You tank appears to be cycling. Having even hints of NH3 & NO2 is not good. Even if your tank is cycled now, the moor had been exposed to toxic water & can come down with ailments days after the event.

4. That fish certainly don't look happy .... possibly some kind of infection, but no definite diagnosis just with the pic.

Suggestions:
1. maintain clean water - what test kit you are using? Are you certain it is accurate?
Do a largish (say 40%) water change to see if things improve.
2. check the temp
3. Consider adding a low level of salt (0.1-0.2%) for a presumptive external infection.
4. Consider possible parasitic or internal bacterial infections if fish is not getting better with clean water & salt. Generally, treatment is with medicated foods. I suspect you live in the UK (from the idioms in the post); in that case, you will need to consult a vet as medicated food is not avialable over the counter. <Please don't be offended if my guess is wrong! >
5. You should learn about swim bladder disorder & try to rectify the problem in the other goldfish. (Or post more details & we will sleuth it out with you.) <Some causes of swimbladder may be untreatable, but there are others causes that should be treated ... >

 

[DebbieMum]

Dear Jsoong

Thank you for your prompt reply and yes I'm in the UK.

Yesterday I did a 1/3 water change and will be doing a 10% change later on today.

Test kit is Interpet - it's not always easy to work out which levels with the card supplied (years ago - around 11 before we had children - we had two successful bio orbs, one fresh water the other tropical until we went on honeymoon and our friend decided to ignore our request to feed the fish a little every other day and instead visited every day and gave them 3 times worth of feed each day - needless to say you couldn't see from one side of the orb to the other and the fish died.....), I'm sure we had a kit "first time round" which was much easier to use.

We live in South UK, temp today outside is going to be about 14 degrees but it's warmer inside. I think the temp changes have something to do with how the fishes are now - going from the warmth upstairs to a slightly cooler room downstairs.

Will be visiting fish shop today so will pick up a thermometer as we don't have one at all (excluding the electronic one for the kids, not suitable for water!).

Will also pick up some aquarium salt.

Re Swim Bladder fish I've read that the shape of the fish can have something to do with the problems - chap in the fish shop said give him a few weeks to see if it goes. Not sure what other information I can give about swim bladder fish, just spends his time wedged under a leaf to stop him floating to top, will dart about a bit, can look unbalanced (tips from side to side) when swimming near bottom (looking for food).

Anyway it's school run, will let you know how salt goes.

Thanks again

 

[jsoong]

A temp drop of more than 3 or 4 degrees can certainly bring on ailments. Although this is usually a problem in outdoor ponds, a move in tanks could also be the culprit.

The most likely diagnosis is columnaris (aka flex) in the moor. If it is external, it will likely respond to salt. Increasing temp to low 80F (27C) also helps (although you need good in tank aeration if you are going to push the temp.) If the fish is not getting worse, i would stay with the salt & clean water for a few days. If there is no improvement, you may try some OTC remedies like Melafix. <Interpet makes something similar as well ... look for either an ant-bacterial or an anti-"fungus" cure. (Columnaris, although a bacterial infection (Flexobacter), is often called mouth fungus).> I normally go for antibiotic food (like MediGold) right after the salt treatment fails, but you might try the Melafix first before getting a vet consult.

There are many causes of swimbladder disorder. You may consider doing a fish physical if the fish can be handled:
DIAGNOSTIC TECHNIQUES

There are 2 simple things that can be done first:
1. Look at the fish from the top ... is the back bent (permanently) from side to side? If so, this is a congenital disorder, and nothing much can be done.
2. Is the fish bloated? If so, it is either Ascitis, Dropsy or constipation.
Constipation is the one easiest treated. Just feed some peas as a laxative. <Since goldies should be having veggies normally, feeding peas is always a good thing to try.> If feeding peas don't work, then you cna try a 2 day fast followed by more peas, or alternatively feed a single grain of MgSO4 (epsom's salt) buried in a pea if the fish is large enough (say 3-4" min.). There are harsher purgatives .. like a salt or MgSO4 bath, but peas alone had worked for me every time.
Ascitis & dropsy is normally associated with lifted out scales & protruding eyes. (pineconing) These are serious conditions that rerely respond to treatment.

There are other treatments for SB disorder - some symptomatic (eg Chinese low water method, heat), other treating presumptive internal bacterial/parasitical conditions. But I would start simple & work on up.