Black Moor sick?

[Fin1hms]

I am VERY new to this....my son 'won' 2 goldfish at the fair this summer. So of course I ran out and purchased MORE fish and a too small tank.
After the two fair fish were bullying the cute little black moor, my two kids wanted to keep the moor and the 2 cory cats. We surrendered the fair fish to Petco (VERY nice of them!) since I read they grow so large... We have a small Mystery snail and a Extra small horned snail.
We purchased a bigger (20 gallon) aquarium with an Aqueon filter (for a 40 gallon tank). She (only a she because my kids named her a girl name...) didn't seem to be 100% after the bullying and too small tank so we left the cats and snails in the 10 gallon and moved her and (part of the old filter) to the new tank. We treated with aquarium salt and Melafix. She perked right up! We left them separated about a month so I could do the weekly water changes and decrease the salt before bringing the cory's and the snails. They have been together about 3 weeks.
About 3 days ago I noticed she was sitting on the bottom (no for long) but this was what made me think she wasn't doing well before. Only caught it a few times over the last few days. Mostly swimming happily looking for food (always right?). But today...this REALLY long poop. With a white string attached as long as the really long poop. I've googled but can't find a definitive answer. From totally fine, to parasites or bacteria or 'was' constipated. At this point, I'd probably be more upset than my kids if something happens to sweet Gerty!
1~BLACK MOOR, 2-3 INCHES (GROWN A LOT SINCE WE GOT HER, A LITTLE BOTTOM SITTING, BUT A REALLY LONG STRINGY POOP
2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia-0, nitrites-0, nitrates-0 (MAYBE SLIGHT COLOR BEFORE TODAYS WATER CHANGE) , temp-72, pH-7.8)? Please give exact values.
3~ How large is the tank? 20 GALLSON How long has the tank been set up? ALMOST 2 MONTHS
4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known. AQUEON 40 GALLON
5~How many fish are in the tank?3 What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes? THE MOOR (2-3 WITHOUT TAIL) AND 2 CORY CATS (1.5?)
6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel? TODAY How often do you do this? ONCE PER WEEK How much water do you remove at a time? 4.5 GALLONS
7~How long have you had the fish? 4 MO? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them?
8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.? NO. BUT WE HAVE DRIFTWOOD WITH A PLANT, CUTTLEBONE FOR THE SNAILS, AND 7 MOSS BALLS
9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently? AQUEON GOLDFISH GRANULES AND I AM SSURE SHE EATS SOME OF THE CORY CATS SHRIMP PELLETS. BLANCES SPINACH ONCE VERY WEEK OR SO AND 1-2 HULLED GREEN PEAS PER WEEK

Thank you in advance for any help! I am trying to post the photo but doesn't appear to be working...

 

[King Fisher]

First, your tank isn't cycled. It's surprising that you are reading 0's on your water test with only 20% water changes a week. What test kit are you using? You should be doing 50% water changes weekly as standard practice. Especially with a goldfish.

It could be parasitic or constipation. If it's constipation, dose your tank with Epsom salt. 1 TEAspoon per 5 gallons of water.

If it's a worm there's a goat dewormer that can be used. A member here by the name of Autumnsky has used this before on fish and knows the dosage.

 

[Fin1hms]

thank you for your help!

Thank you so much for your fast response! I tested the water with a tetra strip BEFORE my water change yesterday and it showed a small amount -light pink (it's not super accurate...but less than 20) and then AFTER (the values I gave you) with an API freshwater kit. I just read that any water additives (i used Seachem Prime) could influence the test! So i just tested again with the liquid test and they show 10/20 (so hard to tell as the colors are so close).... Hopefully the Prime has dissolved enough to get an accurate reading?

I can definitely do 50% changes weekly! Should I change more water out right now?

Could you tell me how to upload a photo? I could do that and see if you could tell more definitively if it was parasitic or constipation? Or could it hurt to feed her a pea AND to treat for parasites? it was a REALLY (7 inches?) long normal looking poop with an equally as long string--thin as a hair) floating off it. I think I have the photo upload working...!

Regarding the salt--should I remove the snails (and cory cats) to do this? Or should I try and do the 'bath' that I have read about. She (I don't know that for sure...) was sitting on the bottom and pooping again today. Looked normal. Swimming around but (I'm paranoid?) not as happily as usual? and then back to the same spot and bottom sitting again. I think that is just a spot in the aquarium with the least current...
Thank you in advance--Merry Christmas Eve!
Heather

 

[King Fisher]

The test kit is good. Strips are garbage. After two days the Prime won't be affective and you should be able to get an accurate reading.

I'm pretty sure your tank isn't cycled if you have no nitrates within a week. So if you get ammonia over .25ppm do a 50% water change ASAP. If you get any nitrite reading do a 50% water change immediately. You really don't want any steady nitrites. I think if you are doing 50% weekly water changes you will keep him healthy but you should always test water every 2-3 days in an uncycled tank.

It couldn't hurt to put him in a quarantine tank and treat him with a dewormer and an antibacterial medication. Just need careful not to make him ill or kill him with medication which can happen. Send Autumnsky a DM. She can give you info on a dewormer she uses.

 

[Fin1hms]

new developments with gills

The test kit is good. Strips are garbage. After two days the Prime won't be affective and you should be able to get an accurate reading.

I'm pretty sure your tank isn't cycled if you have no nitrates within a week. So if you get ammonia over .25ppm do a 50% water change ASAP. If you get any nitrite reading do a 50% water change immediately. You really don't want any steady nitrites. I think if you are doing 50% weekly water changes you will keep him healthy but you should always test water every 2-3 days in an uncycled tank.

It couldn't hurt to put him in a quarantine tank and treat him with a dewormer and an antibacterial medication. Just need careful not to make him ill or kill him with medication which can happen. Send Autumnsky a DM. She can give you info on a dewormer she uses.

Tested the water this morning (not quite 2 days after the Prime treatment) and the same. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 10/20 nitrates. But new development...gills seem 'flappy/swollen'. I've never seen the red inside Gerti's gills before but I did today! Maybe gill flukes? Went ahead and did a 50% water change (while the kids were opening presents!) and a 30 min salt bath. Started setting up a 10 gallon quarantine tank. Obviously won't by cycled (and the other still may not correct?) With the cory's and snails I can't treat with salt....
Seemed more spunky for several hours and then just sat on bottom. Not moving at all.... 40 minute salt bath and then into the quarantine tank. I did DM Autumsky as well. Shops should be open tomorrow if I should get (guessing I should--treat the main tank with snails and cory's with something...General Cure, ParaGuard?) some medicine and perhaps I can see if they'll sell me something to seed this tank (I did move some decorations in case the large tank is indeed cycled).
Maybe I should have done the opposite? Pulled the cory's and the snails and left her in the large tank...
Just don't know what the right answer is but I am trying! Probably should have done the opposite as it seems that I am not doing something right...!
MERRY CHRISTMAS!

 

[Autumnsky]

Hello and welcome!

I have a limited amount of time due to the holiday and the work schedule.

Short answer is try to get the tank cycled, that would be the longer term goal.

More immediately you can keep doing the water changes as mentioned.

So if the fish just had a normal poop you may not have an issue and it oculd have been a combination of bad water parameters stressing the fish and some constipation.

If this is the case then just keeping the water good AND upgrading and making sure the GF has a correct diet.

GF need plenty of veggies for good pooping. Peas, like fresh cooked, or canned no salt preferred. But there are other other things you can do as well, it seems you are giving some additional added foods for her.

The foods for goldfish should be sinking or slow sinking foods. Floating foods can get them too much extra air gulped in with the foods.

For flake foods this is a reliable place to go to for foods which are are already medicated. Medicated DeWorming Flake
DeWorm I has fenbendozole

https://www.angelsplus.com/FlakeMedicated.htm

As a side note you can purchase already cycled sponges from Angels Plus.
https://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersSpongeActive.htm

I will provide the disclaimer that I am not a fish doc by any means, and am a beginning learner of what meds are good for fish and certain symptoms, mainly based on my personal experiences.

The fenbendozole medicated flake food is what I will use for almost every new fish in QT. (Sometimes it will be a few days to a week of getting the fish settled in and making sure it is doing alright before feeding. - side bar)

This is because I learned first hand that anyone's fish can have parasites. A well known local breeder of great Guppy fish were purchased and lost due to internal parasites.

Stress in changes in tanks, different foods and bully fish can all have their part in lowering the resistance of a fish, allowing the parasites to be able to take hold.

The Goat dewormer is a liquid and can treat a whole tank, but ideally internally with the flake foods would be my first recommendation.

Yes the fish become very dear to us! We love them.

 

[Fin1hms]

SO...updates!!! 26th she was doing serious bottom sitting. Perked up very little when she would see me but obviously not doing well. LFS only had API General Care so I got that. Pulled the carbon filters and replaced with some sponges. I treated the large tank and the hospital tank. Ordered the cycled sponges from Angel Care (hoping to arrive today!). Ammonia - 0, Nitrites - 0, Nitrates ~20. This CANNOT be right...has to be due to my using the prime daily. And will continue since I am not supposed to do water changes with the General Care (2nd dose is today) unless someone here tells me otherwise (more than willing to!). I did move some ornaments and moss balls to the hospital tank but I can't imagine those being enough. And did move her so that I could add salt (since cory's and snails can't tolerate it).
Yesterday (27th) Cory Cats ACTIVE! I think they had to be sick with parasites (snails last in so am guessing it was them...) as well and I just didn't realize (since they do sit on the bottom). But they were super playful going to top and playing in the bubbles again! Gerti in the hospital tank...not so much. Only got excited for peas and spinach. Soaked some of the shrimp pellets in medicated water and then let them dry out and fed them to her (read this somewhere if medicated food not available). Since she was in the un-cycled hospital tank (using Prime), the water started to look like bacteria bloom, she still looked lethargic and cory's super spunky...moved her back to the big house last night. She has REALLY perked up and has gone back to looking for food constantly! Definitely seems better back in the old tank. Would say she's almost back to normal!
But her gills...still look swollen and floppy. Freaks me out every time I see a flash of red! I have read that is normal, but I just never saw red until this started. I was trying to take a photo but she swims over every time I get close to the tank (Moor's are such sweet fish) looking for food. I am guessing she really did have gill flukes. Anyone know how long that takes to go away (if ever). 2nd dose of General Care is today (and then I think again in 1 week to kill any eggs). Crossing fingers that she is indeed on the upswing! Thanking you both for your great advice at this crazy busy time of year!

 

[Autumnsky]

Sounds like things are getting better.

Complete the full course of medication as to kill off the bad stuff. Set yourself a phone alarm or reminder if you might need a reminder, not to miss the next treatment time.

You can add dissolved Epsom salts (not a salt actually but magnesium sulfate) in the water after the treatment water change. It helps in healing. Might help soothe the gills too.

1 tablespoon per gallon tank volume dissolve in hot water in separate container
and till dissolved add colder water to get to tank or room temp.
Add dechlorinator.
Then add the amount in 1/4 portions over one day.

After that just add back the amount of ES per gallon of water you remove. Treat for about 7 to 10 days. If not seemingly better treat another week.

If things seem better after that then just do regular pwc and your water will be back to normal after a couple weeks of changes.

^^^^^^Use a liquid test kit and monitor frequently until no more issues and cycled then a couple times per week til you get a feel for how your tank is running. Periodically to know for sure how it is.

It is nice to check before pwc and after pwc as well sometimes just to make sure you are making enough of a difference.


Dissolve in hot

 

[Fin1hms]

So things did seem to be getting better after the General Care so I (and now I regret...) didn't do the ES treatment... Just major water changes. There was still some bottom sitting out of the way of the filter current but just more than what she did before I noticed the issue to start with.... I ordered 5 different medicated fish flakes to have them on hand for any type of issue. But oh how hard to determine the cause... 2 days ago the flakes arrived and so did blood in here eye! Just one. I found a picture online of another fancy with blood in both eyes but no responses to that person and I did ask but didn't hear back-they opened another case on their website. I don't see that there is any damage to the outside-just pooling at the bottom. No swelling or anything to the eye. But Gerti does look 'fatter'. no pineconing or anything but just seems fatter.... I read where ES can help parasites (more googling) in soaked food as well so did that as well as dosed the tank per your instructions above yesterday. The Cory cats are NOT happy. At all... I've changed the water in the hospital tank (for sure cycled) to removed the aquarium salt and may move them there if you recommend doing so. Gerti's eye looks no different and she is still looking fat today with some bottom sitting. Gave her the ES soaked food and tried some of the Metro medicated flakes (hard to get her to eat within seconds). I think I had that in my head before re- reading your fenbendozole above. I think all my researching has everything running together. Trying to get it all right and continuing to do nothing right....

 

[Fin1hms]

update--the next day her OTHER eye was swollen and looking popped out and everyone not moving around much. So moved all of them to the hospital tank and everyone almost immediately perked up. I think that I have found the source of my issues. In all the moving (and draining and resetting up), I re-read all bottles and information and removed all ornaments etc. It turns out it was me. I had read the Prime container wrong...I was dosing all water changes and extra in the tank by over 10x what I was supposed to! They've been in the hospital tank and as happy as can be. Blood gone from the one eye and the other has much reduced swelling. Still feeding the ES soaked food because it seems that would help reduce some swelling. I hope I have not done permanent damage. I think this has to be the issue.

 

[Autumnsky]

Sometimes the eyes clear up well.

What were the water parameters?

This is also exactly a response seen by moving fish from poor water quality to fresher not toxic water tank.